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What's more important, ES or Group Size??

 
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  #1  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:08 PM
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What's more important, ES or Group Size??

I'm working on some loads for my 7mm Remington Mag. This rifle will be used for max 600-800 yds. hunting. I have a load that shoots 1/2" at 200 yds. but has an ES of 32 fps. I also have a load that shoots just over 1" at 200 yds. but has an ES of 14 fps. I have not had a chance to shoot farther yet. I will shoot farther to verify drop charts and to check groups as soon as the wind stops blowing. But I wanted input on which load I would be better off pursuing.
Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:15 PM
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Re: What's more important, ES or Group Size??

group size. ES is just another "tool" to help fine tune, but shooting good groups is better than a tiny ES.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:32 PM
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Re: What's more important, ES or Group Size??

I'm not bashing but I'll take a .5moa group with an ES of 2 over a .25moa group with a ES of 15 tiny grounds are not always the best, the higher the ES at the chrony just think about what that spread will be at 600yrds, a ES of 25 could be 125 at 600 and will not be consistent, this not opinion either it is fact, any 1k ibs shooter will tell you the same.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:09 PM
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Re: What's more important, ES or Group Size??

They are both important.

What you want is a good group and a low ES for long range shooting.

A good ES means that you have a good consistant Case, powder,primer and bullet weight
combination .

Good groups may mean that your rifle likes the bullet and velocity your using.

At close range (100 to 300 yards) a good group is all you need.

Try changing primers and/or powder to improve the ES while maintaining the same velocity
and bullet.

J E CUSTOM
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:36 PM
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Re: What's more important, ES or Group Size??

J E Custom is right (as usual). You need a balance between group size and ES. To determine how small an ES you need, just run the numbers....

Lets say that your 7mag shoots .5moa groups with the 168VLD at 3000fps (average), with an ES 32. Check the variance at 800 yards with a velocity of 2984fps and 3016fps. Then, depending on the variance you can determine if that variance is too much for the target at which you are shooting.

Continuing the example, lets suppose that this velocity variance provide you with a .25moa variance at 800 yards. This doesn't seem bad until you add the average .5moa group. This would mean you have the possibility of a .75moa variance at 800 yards. that's roughly 6" and is outside the the magic 8" kill zone on a deer (remember, you are shooting at the center of the kill zone, so it's a 4" radius). In this example, an ES of 32 is too much. You would need to roughly cut that number in half to 16.

Generally speaking, I look for .5moa accuracy (or better) with an ES of 15 (or less) in nonmagnum cartridges.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:22 PM
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Re: What's more important, ES or Group Size??

So how can I shrink group size of the load that has a good ES? It will print two shots together (within 1/2") and throw the third out an inch. It will consistently put the first two shots right next to each other and then throw the 3rd low and left. Is this something that can be fixed with seating depth? What about a different primer?
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2011, 02:07 AM
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Re: What's more important, ES or Group Size??

what are your loads powder, bullet ? brass ? neck turned? neck sized?..
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