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Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round

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Unread 02-02-2005, 09:35 PM
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Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round


To be fair about the Pac-Nor barrels, I have really not tested enough to give an educated review of their barrels. I have heard so many good things about Chris's barrels, especially the Super Match barrels that they can stand on their own rep.

I will say that I do find the Lilja barrels to have a slightly better bore finish after break in, again, I only have these three barrels to base this on so take that into account. Still, with my 257 Allens loaded with the 100 gr Wildcats to 4100 fps and the 130 gr Wildcats to +3600 fps, after 30 rounds down the pipe, I can clean the Lilja in 5 minutes as there is simply no copper fouling.

In the Pac-Nors this is not the case.

Again, let me be fair, in the Liljas I am shooting 100 to 145 gr bullets of .257 caliber in a 1-10 twist. In the Pac-Nor barrels I am shooting 156 gr ULD 257 bullets and 169.5 gr ULD 270 bullets, both with 1-8 twists. The ULD bullets have longer baring surfaces and the steeper twist rate increases the force needed to drive the bullet down teh bore.

Until I can get in my 1-7.5" Lilja .257" barrels and my 1-8" Lilaj 270 barrels, I just can not honestly say one is better then the other.

As far as accuracy goes, with these test barrels, teh Lilja barrels have a slight edge in accuracy, still the Pac-Nors have shot enough very tight groups to be impressed with them. In fact, this last weekend, I fired a three shot group at 500 yards that measured just over .500" with the Pac-Nor barreled 270 Allen Mag with the Wildcat ULD in a fireforming load no less!!!

I fired 8 three shot groups that day with the Wildcat ULD at 500 yards and the largest group was right at 3". Five of the 8 groups were under 2" at 500 yards.

Again, these were in virgin cased fireforming loads so obviously the Pac-Nors shoot.

The barrel I had to send back to Pac-Nor was just one of those things, it happens with anything in life. The good thing is that their service was top notch and as good as one could ask for. Pac-Nor is a class act all around.

I have had such amazing results with Lilja barrels that I just want to support Dan. I have never had a reason not to use his barrels, if I do my part as a rifle builder, they make me look very good.

Of course any of the top barrels will do that for a rifle builder.

I can not take any credit at all for teh 180 gr Wildcat design. I tell Richard what I think if he asks and he designs what works. He surely does not need my imput. We talk about the performance level we want to reach and he does the rest, in a month or so bullet show up for testing and I have yet to no be totally impressed with his skills.

He to makes my job much easier as a rifle builder.

As far as being able to have a good hearted spirited debate about different cartridges or theories on shooting. There are hundreds and even thousands of shooters and builders out there more experienced then I am. I know that, full well and as soon as youthink you are the tops is when you get knocked off the tower.

I'm just having fun and enjoy talking with everyone here. Are my wildcats the best invention ever, NO!

Am I reinventing the wheel, I suppose we all are with wildcats now days.

Are we all trying to push the envelope out farther everyday, I sure hope so, thats the fun of this sport and with teh group of shooters that are on this board.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 02-02-2005, 10:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pocahontas, AR
Posts: 1,034
Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round


Since you are talking about velocities that we can logically
expect from a cartridge, I would like your opinion.
I have a 25-06 Sendero that finally is shooting good groups
with certain loads. I am getting 3,250 fps with 115 Triple
Shocks & 3,304 with 120 Part. I suspect that my pressures
are high, but I can load the cases a few times before the
pockets get too loose. Also, these loads are almost 100 FPS
Faster than my brother's 25-06, so maybe I have a fast barrel. Anyway, if I Ackley Improve this gun, how close can
I get to .257 Wea. velocities. I am not sure that I want to
open up the bolt to chamber a belted mag. BTW, your rounds
look good and I would like to try a 270 or 7mm version later.
You will not make peace with the Blue Coats, you are free to go.
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Unread 02-03-2005, 08:09 AM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Memphis,Tn
Posts: 76
Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round

Have you ever thought of building the next level of gun?I know Germans had BIG guns that shot a bullet 2 inches smaller than the barrel,So i know they were pushing pressures out of normal thinking.And there gun never blew up,so i think the next level is to throw out the recievers made by corprate America,and start over.How about the shoot around corner gun?Also i know of a Jap gun that wouldn't blow up,they ended up putting a ramrod down the barrel when they shot it,and all it did was strip the threads off the barrel.So all parts are not the same.I realy try to build/modify a gun for use and practicallity,not looks.I'll send some pic's in of my bullpup 30-338 win 70.I wish i would have pattened my muzzel loader 4 yars ago,Break open on a nef frame,32 in.Well keep on keeping on.
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Unread 02-03-2005, 09:16 AM
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Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round


You have a faster then average barrel but I have seen these velocities in 25-06 rifles before. If your only getting three firings per case, I would personally drop down 50 to 75 fps and get another 2 firings at least but that is me personally. Just from a brass cost standpoint.

That said, if your rifle is shooting best where you have it, I would not chance a thing. You are not in dangerous pressure levels by any means so give your rifle what is likes and it soulds like you are.

100 fps variation from one rifle to another is common, even with same barrel length so this would not alarm me to much, just the nature of the game.

I have build several 25-06 AI with a very accurate reamer I had JGS build for me. Performance of the 25-06 AI is generally very close to factory published specs of the 257 Wby.

I like to tell guys they will get 100 to 125 fps more velocity with the AI chamber then they would with the parent case. That said, this is generally a very conservative estimate and they tend to get more then that in velocity gains.

It is an impressive little round, all the AI rounds on teh '06 case tend to do very well in performance for their size. The 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 7mm and 30-06 Ackley Improved rounds all come very close to their belted magnum brothers in velocity. Generally within 100 fps in same length barrels. Some a bit less, some a bit more, again, its a barrel issue as well to determine velocity.

Anytime your ready for the 270 Allen Mag just let me know. I am right in the middle of load development for the new full length version of the 270 AM and so far I am thinking this will be the one I go with. It is an impressive round.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 02-03-2005, 09:18 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round


Would like to see your pics, post them!!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 02-03-2005, 10:53 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nevada
Posts: 788
Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round

I would like to have a lightweight rifle capable of taking out varmints and deet on Powerlines, fields, gaslines here in N.C. As far as caliber goes, those 270wsm or 7mm wsm sound good. A 280 AI is a possible. A 7mm/08 with the Hornady high power rounds. or some wicked 25 caliber would all work. Would a stock 25/06 do the job on yoyes and deer to 500 yards reliably? Can anybody suggest something "fun" I know I do not want to go above 140 gr 7 nn bullit. Any thoughts if you were in my shoes. I already have a .270 (A-Bolt)that shoots marble size groups, but I want a change. Does the.257 Weatherby shoot tight groups? Will want to do all this on a 700 Rem action

[/ QUOTE ]

since you already have a 270 why not try some kind of 26 - 28 inch barreled 6mm or 6.5 The wild cat rounds like the 6mm-06 or 6.5 - 06 Design your gun for the intended bullet weight and game. fast 6mm 100's and 105's are deadly out to 400 in sub 300 lbs animals I always take a second gun in a hard case out hunting in the truck. Here is a nice 87gr load.

Bullet Hornady V-Max
BulletWeight 87 grs
Powder Hodgdon H4831SC
PowderWeight 56 grs
Primer CCI 250
Brass Make Remington
Barrel Length 28 (inches)
C.O.L 3.151 (inches)
Velocity 3520 fps
Group (inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date 1/26/2004 2:15:00 PM
Submitted By Butch Gossett
Gun Info
Comment Extremely accurate, sub 1/4"groups

To these guys on the discussion about 7mm STW I have a wildcat that was made before the factory and the case holds @6 more grains of powder. The shoulder is steeper with a longer case body. I have never tried 140's because of my 1-9 twist 28 inch barrel. It shoots the 168 & 175 spbt's
.270 Ackley improved 29 inch 1.250 dia. target barrel 7mm STW 28 inch 1.250 target barrel. I also love my .458 mag for varmints and the biggest game in the world.
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Unread 02-03-2005, 04:56 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wallaroo, South Australia
Posts: 201
Re: Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round

nomosendero, As ususal I agree with Fifty's comments, and if you are getting those velocities then stick with the 25/06, as I am only getting those velocities in the newer and second of my 25/06 AI rifles.

I currently own two 25/06 AI, rifles, and each was a standard 25/06 for about 200 shots before having the barrel set back and rechambered to the 25/06 AI, and both have 24 inch barrels.

Typically I have found that in a 24 inch barrel a 25/06 AI will get between 3550 - 3600 fps with the 100 grain bullet, and 3250 and 3300 with the 115 - 120 grain bullets. You probably could add another 50 fps to those figures if using a 26 inch barrel.

Like Fifty, I would also add a note of caution about your pressures and the case life. Initially in my rifle 1, when working up loads in the 25/06, I achieved 3418 fps with the 100 grain bullet, and 3163 fps with the 120 grain bullet, found that neither was sustainable as primer pockets loosend within 3 or 4 shots. So I dropped the loads by 1 grain, and settled on velocities of around 3325 -3350 fps with the 100 grain bullet, and 3075 - 3100 with the 120 grain bullet, and found that cases now lasted 6 - 10 shots.

Similarly in the same rifle in 25/06 AI when working up loads, intially I settled on using 61.0 grains of IMR 4831 with the Nosler 100 grain BT, and was consistently geting about 3650 - 3675 fps (3733 on 1 day) with excellent accuracy. However, and probably not surprisingly primer pockets opened up after 3 -4 shots, so I dropped the loads back 1.0 grain (60.0) and found that I was now getting 3,550 - 3575 fps, with much improved case life.

Similarly when using the Nosler 120 grain SPBT, initially I was getting 3375 - 3400 fps and acceptable accuracy, but again primer pockets loosened and so I dropped back by 1 grain and to velocities of around 3300 fps and much improved case life.

Eighteen years later when working up loads in rifle 2, I have found that maximum load for 100 grain bullet produced 3325 fps in the 25/06 and 3550 in the 25/06 AI. I did not test the 115 - 120 grain bullets as a 25/06 in this rifle, but 63.5 - 64.0 grains (100% loading density) of H1000 or Viht N170 will produce with excellent accuracy (sub 0.5moa) between 3250 and 3300 fps depending on the temperature.

Good luck with your 25/06, and just closely monitor the pressures and case life. Brian.
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