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Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

 
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  #8  
Old 01-03-2004, 08:05 PM
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

Nice shooting Wyo, how 'bout sending me that rifle, so's I can test it a little? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Kinda figured out what the answer will be already! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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  #9  
Old 01-04-2004, 08:23 PM
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

I'll be happy to send the lid for my burner barrel if you think that'd cover it!

Nice shooting. Now that you've tested the shooter, test the gun... Shoot MORE rounds. 3 shots just doesnt' mean anything. Not to say that 3 in a good group isn't good. But, don't you guys EVER keep going to see when it will open up. I shoot 20 and 25 shot groups to see what my gun will do if I'm really interested. While i've never shot 20 shots inside 2" at 425, I have done that under 3. (off a bench in good conditions). And that's not unusual.
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  #10  
Old 01-04-2004, 08:34 PM
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

As a side note, just so you don't think I can't shoot off a bipod. I never shot paper much at that range with my Swift, but I've got several groups under 2" at 425 yards (5 shots) with a bone stock Rem 700 VSSFP Swift off a bipod with the original factory trigger.

In a practice with it the other day getting ready for a postal match, I shot a 242-6x with that same gun, and today in the wind and rain at an afternoon BR score match (my first ever) I shot a 240-4x with another factory (off the shelf bone stock) gun and this one I'd never seen or touched before in my life. My entire experience with it was the 1 dry fire i did during my relay time before shooting the first target of the day.

If you take the time and effort to shoot groups of 10 or more, you may find problems that are hidden from you when shooting small strings.
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  #11  
Old 01-04-2004, 11:27 PM
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

4mesh063-curious about the name, is that a custom rifle?
Sometimes its just best to stop! LOL Wyo shoots better than me, but I'd stop just to do the gun justice, although I think 10 shots is the best way, and we all know it! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2004, 02:56 PM
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Location: Palmer, Alaska
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

Right on Ric!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Isn't it hard to see those shots in the "blue"? I had a hard time at 200 yards sometimes and gave up those targets soon after I started using them. I swear, I'm hooked on the white paper with thin black lined bulls for that reason, not to mention they fit in a binder. I hate a shot that blends in with the target. Phil's vidio tape idea is the best I've heard of to at least tell which was which after your done.

Phil,
I'm curious, when you're working up a load, or starting out on one, do you still shoot such a high number in a string? Or just at a point you're feeling good about a load and want to verify it completely?

I'm sure you've seen the recent 3 shot groups I shot with the 30-338. Really, the reason I shot 3 shot groups when I usually shoot 5 or more was, I was really interested in how it would stack up against all the teeny weeny 3 shot groups I always read about, and hell, that was the only way to really tell. It did give me a sense of how my rifle is performing in the hunting rifle/tactical arena anyway, as this is the number of shots most always fired.

I've really seen "very" few targets posted side by side in the order they were shot that would reveal the "consistancy" of the great groups that most post pix of, so i'm still not sure of how mine really compares in the end. Many a gun will shoot a tiny group someone can post a pic of, how many will shoot them same tiny groups one after the other, after the other, after the other I'm still not sure of. If more people that have these truely outstanding grouping rifles, why is it not more pictures are shown of the consecutive groups they produce. I for one usually never shoot one 3 shot group at a range session, probably because I don't shoot out my back door [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] like Ric and others obviously do, but someone post a pic of several groups they just got done shoooting so I've got some REAL idea how mine's doing. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] 2050 members on this site and there's less than about two handfulls(?) of guys that I think have posted pix of groups, and less that are consecutively shot.

Heck, if you can't post pics of them, at least measure 'em and tell us how they ended up shooting that day.

I shot some groups here weeks ago now and some were fantastic in my book, but the one that mattered to me was the largest .482" MOA, I really don't know what the average was with this load using the 210 Berger, but from all I can tell, I see the load as consistantly under .5 MOA to start with, most likely quite a bit better as the other groups indicate. Still, I've got to know what I can count on, that's just what is most important to me.

I can look at the 1k BR results and see where I'm at in the aggs, even tho I'm shooting in different conditions as the guys at the various ranges I follow results on, but still, it gives me a good idea of not how I'd place there, but how I'm doing overall compared to a larger sample of shooters at 1k yards. It probably takes me 10 to 15 minutes to run through 10 rounds at 1k yards, and I don't shoot fast, but rather I fire in the most predominant condition at the time I'm shooting and put on the dope needed. In a lot of guys minds, this is not the most successfull way to shoot 1k BR, and swear I'd do better getting them downrange one after the other all in seconds rather than minutes. This is just one thing I consider when comparing my seccess to those then. I still shoot this way though, as this is the way I hunt and what matters to me at this point.

Anyway, post the good, bad and downright ugly results of the day, range fired, wind conditions etc, so we get the whole picture. Then we might all see that either our guns are doing $hity, okay, pretty darn comparable, or outstanding. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2004, 05:24 PM
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

4 Mesh .063 is a designation for a type of wire cloth product (hardware cloth). 4 meshes per lineal inch (16 openings / Sq in) and a wire diameter of .063 (.0625= 1/16", .063 is the industry standard size for 16 gauge)

Brent, No I usually use from 5 to 10 to work up loads. Generally, I'll shoot 7 or more. In the past, that's been dictated by the number of brass left over after having an uneven number come out with VERY expensive brass. For large groups, I use my match brass that historically, gets over 50 firings.

As an example, The other day I had my nephew who's just back from Iraq shoot a test for me out of my bench gun. I had him shoot at 2 different aiming spots on the same sheet of paper at 425 yds (just happens to be the distance I have handy). On paper. Now, he took an eterninty between shots so I didn't get what I'm gonna call a real set of test results. 7 shots were sent at aiming point 1. 10 at aiming point 2. This simulates real match conditions because I've many times shot 7 sighters or less. Some times more. Up to 13 I've shot in a match. Anyhow, He shot for a period of perhaps 15 minutes or more to complete the 17 rounds so as I said, this isn't a fair test. Group 1 (7 shots) measure 2.895 and Group 2 (10 shots) measure 3.270. Subtract the .308 from each and you get 2.587 and 2.962. Overlaying the 2 groups, I get 4.010 so thats a 3.702.

If I had shot that group and hadn't taken the kind of time that he did, I'd be cutting the barrel off and throwing it away. Given the elapsed time, I'm gonna say I'm happy with the results. Quite honestly, a gun that groups just under 4" at 425 is positively guaranteed to be dead last at Williamsport.

If I had a camera, I'd post a pic, not that anyone cares. This is though a good example of how a pretty decent gun opens up through time. Yes, I've had 3 and even 5 shot groups from this gun go under .3 at 425 but then I CONTINUED the string and reality set in. Then I found out just how much I have to fix.

I watched these groups form and the only problem I saw was time. He just shot too damn slow because of being unfamiliar with bench shooting. I also had him being careful not to drop my brass in the driveway so hey, life goes on. I would have really liked to have seen what it would have done and I can only guess. Maybe it would have been no better, ???. Now it's getting cold here and I wont get to shoot the thing at 1K for a while. I don't think that the best groups come in cold conditions anyhow, so time will tell. That's good news for Ric because if he's happy now, He'll probably really be happy in July-Sept.

Brent, as for load development, 3 shots definitely won't tell you what to shoot. It may though, tell you what not to. I don't really do much load development so it's hard for me to tell.
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2004, 05:32 PM
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Re: Tired of small groups at 100 yards check this out!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Yes, I've had 3 and even 5 shot groups from this gun go under .3 at 425 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

umm.... question.. .3 MOA or .3"
at 425 yards..
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