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Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

 
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  #1  
Old 04-17-2005, 11:49 AM
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Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

About a month ago I started a thread in this forum hoping to recruit people willing to test some of the wildcat bullets 225gr RBBT 30 caliber bullets I had ordered, when they arrived. In the last email I had exchanged with Richard, he said that the bullets might be a while (a month or more possibly) due to having a die worked on. While I was waiting on them to arrive, two fellow forum members volunteered to test samples for BC when they arrived.

I emailed Richard at the beginning of the week wondering if there had been any progress (more out of growing tired of going to the mailbox waiting on bullets and being disappointed than anything else).

Richard informed me that due to posts I had made on this board, he would not be filling my order. Richard expressed that he felt betrayed by my posts, and that he thought I had taken a position that was "he will do anything to sell you bullets" I presume refering to the claimed high BC that was estimated by his die makers.

I have emailed richard since his reply attempting to explain that I believe that all of this is a misunderstanding, and that, as I mentioned in my origional posts, i have no ill will toward Mr. Graves.
All of this to no avail. I have not heard anything from Richard since my reply 4 days ago.
Consequently, it appears I will be unable to provide bullets to the two members who volunteered to help.
Brent Moffitt, and Goodgrouper, thanks for the offer, but don't be watching your mailbox [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Reading back through my origional thread, I found a post that pretty well summed up where I thought this issue was.

Goodgrouper said:
[ QUOTE ]
I do agree with you that the Wildcat bullets have huge potential. I am waiting for mine to show up anxiously. But I think when comparing bullets, it needs to be done by keeping as many of the variables the same as possible. There are certain facts that can be discovered about bullets without ever putting velocity to them though. One can measure weight, ogive length, boat tail diameter, meplat uniformity, and others things between two bullets to get a pretty good idea of consistency. That being said, I do believe that the Matchkings leave some room for improvement in some areas, and I am waiting to test this with the Wildcatters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the origional thread for those who might have missed it, or only saw part of it.
I would be interested to hear other forum members opinions as to my precieved attitude toward both richard and these bullets. Im just having trouble understanding how people are misunderstanding my intentions when I have stated them so many times.

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...9&fpart=all
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  #2  
Old 04-17-2005, 11:54 AM
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Re: Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

Oh, and before I forget, don't call richard to ask him about the BCs on his bullets. He has not tested them yet, and the BCs he quotes are estimations based on various data provided by his die makers. According to other forum members, richard has been reluctant to provide BC numbers at all for this very reason. I mentioned this repeatedly in my origional thread, but apparently some forum members missed this. Don't bother Richard with questions about how he gets the BCs discussed around here.Give the man a chance to do what he does, that being make bullets!
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  #3  
Old 04-17-2005, 12:47 PM
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Re: Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

I reviewed the conversation on that post between you and myself and found this:

[ QUOTE ]
4kedhorn,
I completly agree with everything you said, in fact I have already stated almost everything you have said! I know that his BC figures are predicted by the mfgs of his dies, and that they are approximate. Please review my previous posts for verification. I have exchanged emails several times with Richard. if you are interested, the pitchfork is still in the barn. It will stay there. No torch either, except for the british, then I have a surefire P9. Sorry, a weak attempt at flashlight humor.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were agreeing with my bold typed defense of the BC estimation. I don't know what other "off forum" dialogue you may have had with others but it seems that here you meant no ill will regarding estimated BCs. It seems that a clarification or or concurrence was more what you were interested in. No harm in that.
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Old 04-17-2005, 12:50 PM
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Re: Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

abinok

If you didn't have any bad intentions the why did you make this post??? Seems to me that this could have been all responded to the private individuals via email about it. Thus IMO shows trying to publicly badmouth Richard. As i am a big proponent of Richard's I am in a way defending him but i think this could have been done in emails to him and to Brent and GG.

I am not trying to and not going to get into a flame fest beacause i want Lynn to be able butter his bread.

There have been other people on this board that have ordered and use Richard's bullets and Vouch for the consistancy of his bullets. I have talked to Richard about some of the measuremants that i found with my remaining bullets that i reported to GG and said his die went bad and is getting a new one. As to what Brent has heard about the inconsistant measuremants from other people not from his own experience was that there was a batch of bullets that went out and Richard was asked about it and He checked his dies and found the problem and ordered new dies.

The man takes pride in his bullets and his service and communications with his fellow shooters to the highest degree. Very hard to find these days.

Kirby and I have said that Richard only has a projected B.C's from the die maker and may or may not be true. We also report what it takes "in our situation " fudging the b.c number in our ballistic programs to match our drops.

It was never meant to be this was the absolute B.C. number for this bullet but the bullets had a flatter trajectory than other bullets tested that had high B.C's but as this isn't a face to face conversation and is the internet, typed words can be taken out of context from the original poster.

We also had Dantec come on and want info from GG on his findings from shooting 2000 yards with the 300 Sierra match king to see how his findings compared to Dantec's model trajectory for this bullet. I have not seen or read anything that Dantec has come back to report his findings. Hence i take that as that GG's report didn't match Dantec's findings and he didn't want to say That the bullet for GG was inferior to what the data Dantec has.

In that thread, I believe, we came to the conclusion there are to many variables to calculate the B.C of ANY bullet due to differant geographic conditions. Brent had stated he found the B.C of the 300 Sierra to be .78-.79??(going from memory)at his location and his gun. I know guys that report the 300 Sierra of haveing .81 B.C in there rifle and location. Who is right? We all are due to that each rifle is differant and differant locations. I believe each bullet will have a differant flight characteristics in each person weapon and velocity and enviromental conditions. Shooters should only Look at what B.C's are being reported and try them out if they look good, in their own weapon and conditons to see if they see better results than other bullets they are using in their weapon.

To each his own. Me personaly, when i look for a bullet to use i will look at B.C's between differant makes of bullets and pick the one i think will work and try it out not relying on the Manufactures absolute B.C number because it may be higher or lower than stated.
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  #5  
Old 04-17-2005, 12:55 PM
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Re: Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

4ked,
Thaks for having another look.
The ony "off forum" stuff I refered to was to a few emails that that others sent concerning variations in base to ogive, and BS length. These individuals weren't wanting to comment on the forum due to only having sampled relatively small batches of bullets, and 2 of them were quite some time ago. They didn't feel it was worth getting hammered over without knowing if their samples were represenative.
Reading Dave King's recent post about the 169.5gr wildcats BS variations, Richard seems to have this well under controll.
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Old 04-17-2005, 01:06 PM
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Re: Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

[ QUOTE ]
If you didn't have any bad intentions the why did you make this post??? Seems to me that this could have been all responded to the private individuals via email about it. Thus IMO shows trying to publicly badmouth Richard. As i am a big proponent of Richard's I am in a way defending him but i think this could have been done in emails to him and to Brent and GG.

I am not trying to and not going to get into a flame fest beacause i want Lynn to be able butter his bread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt,
Ithik this section is exactly what I was talking about in terms of misunderstanding my intent. When I exchanged wmails with richard, I did discuss BC, since what I was looking for was a LR bullet, and high BC is important for that purpose. As to why I didn't privately email GG and Brent, I didn't know who had what as fr as equipment for testing, and consequently would have nothing in the "to" section of my email. Hence my request for volunteers.

[ QUOTE ]
typed words can be taken out of context from the original poster

[/ QUOTE ]
I also think sometimes that if somebody walks into a conversation with a certian mindset, its also easy to take their intentions out of context as well. Black text on a white screen dosen't convey emotion or attitude very well.

[ QUOTE ]
Me personaly, when i look for a bullet to use i will look at B.C's between differant makes of bullets and pick the one i think will work and try it out not relying on the Manufactures absolute B.C number because it may be higher or lower than stated.

[/ QUOTE ]
in my selection process, I work a load at 300, then shoot it at 100, and 400. If all is well it goes to 1350yds for final tuning and testing. Its hard to get from 400yds to 1350 yds without a measured BC.... and thats all the origional post was after.
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2005, 05:12 PM
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Re: Testing Wildcat bullet BCs

Abinok,

I also have to agree with Matt on this one. What other purpose does your post serve but to say Richard does not want to send you bullets because you offended him.

While I do not know the reasoning behind what Richard is doing, I can tell you that when I read your original post, My very first and still current impression is that you were out to prove that the Wildcat Bullets would not meet the standards that had been spoked of reguarding B.C.

If a future customer of mine posted on a public chat room basically stating that he was out to prove that my produce was no better then anyone elses then I would probably recommend that customer go else where as well.

Weither you ment to or not you came off as biased against the Wildcat Bullets. THis is just what I got from reading your posts.

TO be honest if you want to work with a bullet maker to help him provide ballistic data you may be better served to go to the source and do the testing in private and then produce the results after the testing instead of going about it the way you did.

I can say for a fact that Richard could give a rats rear wiether his bullets have a b.c. of .5 or 1.0.

As a fellow small business owner, I would have done nothing different then Richard did.

Again, I just feel that you came off like you were out to prove a point that these Wildcat Bullets could not possibly produce the b.c. values listed by some.

I will tell you for a fact that every b.c. I have printed on Richards bullets are a direct product of actual field shooting and tracking bullet trajectories, not over one distance or even over two different distances but at at least three different ranges, generally 100, 500 and either 800 or 1000.

These tests are what most call to simplistic to offer any meaningful data for pure B.C. values but they allow me to impact small targets from the muzzle to 1000 yards with amazing consistancy.

Something works and I could care less if my data is pure. It works in the field and that is all that counts. Never once have I printed a B.C. that was not a result of this testing. Actual range testing, not sitting in front of a computer commenting in the "magical B.C.s of the Wildcat Bullets".

I have to say, I am not suprised by Richards response to you.

And if you held no ill will we would not be having this discussion as you would have nothing to type about. I will not get into a ******* match on this topic as you have the right to say what you want but remember Richard has the right to sell bullets to who ever he wants. From reading your original posts, just the topic even, I fully agree with his course of action.

Kirby Allen (50)
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