Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics


Reply

Sorry if this Starts another Argument

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 07-15-2005, 12:14 PM
REV REV is offline
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 36
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

JB is right, if the gun and bullet have the same mass then they would knock you over. An experament: Put force sensors behind gun recoil pad and the other on a stable stand. Shoot the other pad and compare the numbers. (For the "paraniod pistol packing punk" as a co-worker calls them) have him hold the pad in his hand and shot the pad...hehehe. I bet you break his hand but the numbers would be the same. As to bullets killing by shock vs blood loss, I question this. It depends on what is going on. If I shoot a deer in the ribs and blow the heart /lungs away then he runs off a ways, shock did not kill him, the lack of oxygen to his brain did. A brain shot disrupts the central nervous system resulting in death. A gut shot kills from infection or blood loss resulting in lack of oxygen to the brain. All shock does is knock them down right there to allow the blood loss to take its toll.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-15-2005, 12:36 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Grassy Knoll
Posts: 229
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

[ QUOTE ]
Skinny i bet if you hit a deer lengthwise with a 20MM V-max it would explode too [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
In my mind, the fluids act as a force multiplier. JB

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah baby... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Lerch, thanks for asking the question.
There are many good answers here. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
Member: The Red Mist Culture
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-15-2005, 12:38 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 649
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

I will add another thing if it is a question about knock down power why do Alaskan guides carry mostly 375's or bigger for Brown Bear? If all you need is Penetration a 270win will make it to the Boiler room on a charging bear with a good bullet why don't they carry them? Simple they want knock down power. As for flipping people over that is a holywood trick for the most part but I have knocked a lot of deer flat when I have hit bone I know that. If I had to rate shock vs Blood loss from a bullet I would say a animal dies about 75% from shock and blood loss would be 25% Most of the stuff I have shot with a rifle dies within a few seconds and they have tons of blood still in them unlike when I shoot them with my bow.
__________________
Fast, Flat, and Accurate
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-15-2005, 01:13 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,796
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

I have read these posts as well as the other topic that got such a heated debate going about bullet exits or not.

I feel the problem here is the term "Kockdown" or "Stopping" power.

First off, the general opinion of "knockdown" power from guys I have talked to is exactly what many are talking about here, litereally physically knocking down a target animal when the bullet lands home. This in fact is a falasy to be honest. The reason is that the target media does not offer enough resistance to the bullet to stop it instantly, nor does the projectile poses enough kenetic energy or momentum to overcome the targets inertial mass, that being its resistance to go into motion from a state of rest.

Even if we look at the big fight stoppers used in Africa like the 458 magnums, 475, 500 and even larger rounds, to stop a fight instantly you either have to dis rupt the central nervous system or break down enough major support bone structure that the animal simply can not physically support itself to continue a charge.

If you fail to do this you are in a real pickel, especially on a body shot. On a head shot, if your rifle is large enough you will knock the animal out for a short period of time but this is only seen with the very large calibers, mainly 50 cal and up on head shots that are close to the brain.

This is not my personal definition of "knockdown" power. In fact I do not even have one really because it is such a vague term open to to much personal opinion.

What I believe is that a given bullet of a given weight and diameter driven to a given velocity will do "X" amount of damage as it passes through a target animal.

I also believe that as velocity, bullet weight or caliber increases, the effect on big game becomes visually more appearant.

I also believe that once a bullets velocity, bullet weight and frontal area reach a certain level, instant incapacitation of animals occurs more frequently even without CNS hits or major bone impacts.

The reason for this is still because of shock to the targets system. This can be from pressure to the nervous system or actual damage caused by secondary projectiles once the bullet impacts.

I have seen several times where a shot has dropped an animal in its tracks only to have the animal recover and move quite a distance after the shot.

One instance was a 5x5 whitetail I took in 2000. The buck was very heavy, live weight was in the 330 lb range. It was very cold and the buck was in full rut. Things that add to the toughness of these animals. Anyone that has hunted heavy norther whitetails in full rut know that they can be very difficult to anchor. Their will to live is like nothing I have ever seen, even more so then elk in my opinion.

Anyway, at 408 yards I used my 300 RUM to put a 180 gr Ballistic Silvertip though the chest of this buck. The bullet passed between the onside and offside front legs as he was quartering away from me. The buck simply folded up at the shot.

As I was praising myself for such a good shot, the old buck decided he was not finished and got up again and started walking down the hill toward the brush line. I lined up on him again and put another 180 gr bullet in his front shoulder dropping him again instantly but again he regained his feel and made it to the brush.

I waited several minutes and then went down to see the results. He had just made it to the brushline and died. On both shots the buck was literally taken off his feet. Was he picked up and thrown, NO. But there was enough shock to his system to cause him to instantly fold up to the impacts.

On another occasion, two of them actually, both on Mule Deer does using my 338 WSM XP-100 handgun. Ranges were 180 and 220 yards and each was a classic broadside shot. Both shots landed about 4" behind the shoulder hitting nothing but ribs and in both cases the animals simply folded up for good.

So for me I suppose that I would personally call knockdown power the ability to induce enough stress on the system of an animal to cause it to loose control of its motor fuction and fall to the shot.

Comparing a 200 ln whitetail to a 200 lb man is also a poor comparision simply because humans are pansies comparitively. A man hit dead center in the chest with a 300 RUM loaded with a 180 gr BT at 3400 fps would not hardly twitch to the shot.

Also remember that a 308 Win is comparitively a weakling compared to what most use in the hunting fields today.

I personally feel this is as much a result of bullet performance as it is the knockdown power of a round. I feel shot placement is critical, after that I hold retained velocity and bullet performance and the two top factors in dropping an animal instantly.

In field testing the Allen Magnums, I have seen the effects on game of very high retained velocity. It is very obvious visually as well as audibly!!

Just my opinion. Unfortunately there are so many variables to this topic that everyone can have a different opinion and in some ways, most of them have some trueth to them.

Your sniper friend is pushing his knowledge of physics from some of his comments though. As mentioned already, if the rifle was the same weight as the bullet it would do the exact same thing to the shooter as it did to the target.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-15-2005, 02:32 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 50
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

I remember reading an article like this in field and stream were they used a 375 and a 30/06 on an elk cull and documented the reaction of an elk after being shot with either caliber. I think they shot 10 with each, both bulls and cows, at varying ranges. They came to the conclusion that each cartridge killed about the same. Only difference was the 375 had much better penetration. After reading this I came to the conclusion that energy must equal penetration, and bullet expansion. IF you shot a deer in the ribs at 100 yard with a 22lr. the bullet probably wouldn't reach the vitals, but if you shot the same deer at the same distance with a 300 RUM the bullet would go straight through it, and the animal would die from having its vitals turned into mush. So I think knockdown power is a false statement, at least when your talking about deer size game and up.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-15-2005, 02:33 PM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,503
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

Thank the Lord some people here are talking my language. I have never said that I think a bullet would be able to actually blow a animal over, so it certainly wouldn't move a dead pig around [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. I also never said that the shock of the bullet is what kills the animal and not blood loss. Of course blood loss is what kills the animal, the shock I am talking about simply adds to the amount of trauma caused on the animal. While an animal is shocked or possibly temporarly paralized from the shock the severe internal damage the bullet caused can take effect. Either way I am just looking for proof that knockdown power exists.

Thanks
Steve
__________________
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
www.3rdgss.com
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
1-800-522-3314
monday-friday 8:30-5:30 CST
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-15-2005, 02:52 PM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,503
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

Well as I kind of figured me and Kirby pretty much are thinking on the same lines, though he is better about putting his thoughts into words. I may not have posed my original question right, wouldn't be the first time. My real question was to acknowledge the presence of "knockdown power". I know every ones definition of this will vary and that makes this a hard topic to talk about without ******* a lot of people of, something I seem to do [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

I think that the knockdown power or shock is not what really kills an animal, obviously it would be the big hole you have just made in him. THis force does however cause a massive initial shock that sometimes will anchor an animal where he stands and while he is laying on the ground temporarily paralyzed the big hole in him goes to work and finishes the job. This is my opinion, and it is this that the man I debated with did not agree with.

My original post was not about wound channels, or bullets making deer fly, or anything else. I just wanted to try and confirm the presence of "knockdown power" or have people present valid arguements to prove me wrong.

By the way where is GoodGrouper on this one? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks
Steve
__________________
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
www.3rdgss.com
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
1-800-522-3314
monday-friday 8:30-5:30 CST
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Sorry if this Starts another Argument
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Archery Season starts .... FEENIX Bowhunting 10 09-21-2010 08:56 PM
Starts out right, then oh so wrong Southpaw Humor 4 05-03-2008 10:51 PM
It all starts at 4 a.m. 41mag Long Range Hunting & Shooting 10 11-06-2007 08:50 AM
The best argument in favot of LRH RBrowning Long Range Hunting & Shooting 7 01-07-2004 12:27 AM

Current Poll
Do you watch outdoor shows live or by recording them?
Always recorded - 13.10%
112 Votes
Mostly recorded - 24.21%
207 Votes
Sometimes recorded - 15.09%
129 Votes
Rarely or never recorded - 47.60%
407 Votes
Total Votes: 855
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC