Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics


Reply

Sorry if this Starts another Argument

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-15-2005, 10:25 AM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,503
Sorry if this Starts another Argument

I know we have all argued over whether or not we want a bullet to exit a animal or not but I have to tell you all about the debate I just got in here in my shop. A friend of my families and local deputy sheriff sniper came in our shop and we bagan talking about ballistics. After a while he begins arguing that he doens't believe in knock down power of bullets. He says that if a bullet actually had enough power to stop or knockover a animal the gun would do the same thing to the person shooting it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Now I am not a genious, hell half the time I can't even spell right, but I have always been brought up to believe that a bullet carries a certain amount of energy with it and deposits this energy into the object that causes it to stop.

He did say that bullet does have forward inertia but he said that it doesn't actually do anything to game animals.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

now I am not wanting to start another arguement whether or not we want a bullet to stop in a animal or exit but please tell me if what he was saying is correct but I just don't understand it.
__________________
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
www.3rdgss.com
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
1-800-522-3314
monday-friday 8:30-5:30 CST
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-15-2005, 10:51 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Grassy Knoll
Posts: 229
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

Lerch, I prefer to explode my groundhogs whenever possible but I'll settle for shots that don't exit and result in DRT (dead right there) kills. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I think that knockdown theory is all proportionate to the game and caliber being used and your friend is partly correct. You or I as a shooter are braced for the recoil of a gun but an animal is caught off guard when a bullet slams into it.
Groundhogs get flipped head over tail with a 308 or 243 when hit just right.
My one and only deer was taken with a 75 caliber Brown Bess musket at 29 paces. The lead ball knocked the doe off of her feet. Never would have believed it if it hadn't of happened to me. The musket with a 110gr charge of FFg only kicks like a 12ga with slugs.
It would be nice to have a bullet that dumps all its energy into a deer with maximum damage and doesn't exit but don't think that's always possible. If the bullet does punch through while doing much damage then you've got an extra hole for the animal to bleed from.

Am interested in the replies you're going to get here.
Was your friend by chance referring to Hollywood movies where the bad guy gets blown backwards a few feet when hit with gunfire or was the discussion centered on wild game?
Btw, that lead ball did exit on the doe and had shot her just behind the shoulder. And then she tried to get back up. From now on while using a flinter, my shot will be for the shoulders and they aren't going anywhere.
__________________
Member: The Red Mist Culture
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-15-2005, 10:56 AM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,930
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

Since I was also there for the argument, I'll put in my 2 cents.

What he really went into were terminal ballistics. He stated that penetration was the most important factor followed by "permanent wound channel diameter." He said that the bullet's energy had very little if any shock value.

I stayed out of it as long as I could but eventually, had to get envolved. I'll agree that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but I'm not buying this "no shock" idea. If a bullet goes from 2500fps to 500 fps in the width of a deer, the energy that the bullet lost went into the deer. Obviously the greater the speed lost the more energy that is tranfered.

I agree to a point on the would channel, but he stated that the temporary wound channel that is opened by the shock means nothing. If this is true, then why will you see a large blood shot or bruised area all the way around the "permanent" wound channel. I don't know about you, but I would say a bruise is tissue damage. Especially when it's in the lungs.

That'll be enough from me. I'm starting to get all fired up again [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]!!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-15-2005, 11:10 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,310
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

[ QUOTE ]
I know we have all argued over whether or not we want a bullet to exit a animal or not but I have to tell you all about the debate I just got in here in my shop. A friend of my families and local deputy sheriff sniper came in our shop and we bagan talking about ballistics. After a while he begins arguing that he doens't believe in knock down power of bullets. He says that if a bullet actually had enough power to stop or knockover a animal the gun would do the same thing to the person shooting it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Now I am not a genious, hell half the time I can't even spell right, but I have always been brought up to believe that a bullet carries a certain amount of energy with it and deposits this energy into the object that causes it to stop.

He did say that bullet does have forward inertia but he said that it doesn't actually do anything to game animals.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

now I am not wanting to start another arguement whether or not we want a bullet to stop in a animal or exit but please tell me if what he was saying is correct but I just don't understand it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough to argue over facts...but I'm sure comeone will try [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Newtons Third LAW of Motion:
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Theoretically if your rifle weighed 200gns, and you shot a 200gn bullet, the rifle would depart oppositely at the same speed.

JB
__________________
Check it Out!!--> Shoot the Smack The Smiley Match...and help AmericanSnipers.org
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-15-2005, 11:30 AM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,503
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

I understand the theory of an equal force being applied backwards into the rifle and shooter as is applied to the bullet. What i cannot follow is the idea that a bullet possess no knockdown power. If a bullet is driven forward with enough energy to penetrate a animal and expand to twice its size wouldn't we call this knockdown power since that enrgy is also transfered into the animal. I know that a bullet is not going to cause a deer or elk to pick up off the ground and fly back 10 feet but I do think that it is unarguable that a bullet does transfer a severe concussive force to a animal upon impact and while penetrating.

Steve
__________________
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
www.3rdgss.com
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
1-800-522-3314
monday-friday 8:30-5:30 CST
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-15-2005, 11:36 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Grassy Knoll
Posts: 229
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

When my hollowpoints expand in a groundhog, the shock of that violent expansion often times makes the insides a bit mushy. I think the high velocity round compresses the fluid and tissues to a devastating effect.
__________________
Member: The Red Mist Culture
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-15-2005, 11:38 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,515
Re: Sorry if this Starts another Argument

If I understand what the cop is saying he is correct. A bullet will NOT throw a man over backwards or knock him through a glass window as seen in the movies. I saw video of the owner of Second Chance body armor get hit full in the chest with several rounds from a .308 at a distance of about 6 feet. He stood on one foot through the entire demonstration. His armor absorbed all the energy of the bullet. Any large movements from a target this big, compared to the bullet, come from some muscle movement weather voluntary or not. A bullet with 2000 foot/pounds of energy will NOT move a 200 pound sack of rice 10 feet.

Hitting a rock chuck with a .300 is more like hitting a person with a beer can at 2900 fps. This would indeed cause a major movement and could result in a hydrostatic shock sufficient to start bursting tissues (causing liftoff). A full soda can hit with a high velocity .22 will jump off the deck. This is because the pressure applied to the side of the can is instantly transfered to all sides of the can due to the unwillingness of liquids to compress. Same for the rockchucks 95% liquid make up.

Equal and opposite actions still hold true in either case.
__________________
GRAVITY. It's not just a good idea. It's the LAW!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Sorry if this Starts another Argument
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Archery Season starts .... FEENIX Bowhunting 10 09-21-2010 08:56 PM
Starts out right, then oh so wrong Southpaw Humor 4 05-03-2008 10:51 PM
It all starts at 4 a.m. 41mag Long Range Hunting & Shooting 10 11-06-2007 08:50 AM
The best argument in favot of LRH RBrowning Long Range Hunting & Shooting 7 01-07-2004 12:27 AM

Current Poll
Have You Ever Backpack Hunted?
YES - 62.38%
1,066 Vote
NO - 37.62%
643 Votes
Total Votes: 1,709
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC