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The Solid Bullet Debate

 
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  #71  
Old 06-27-2009, 05:36 AM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by noel carlson View Post
MR,

I would place a great deal of confidence in Gerard's judgement regarding terminal effects also. Combining the concepts of precision, and frangible, seem oxymoronic to me... much like "accurate shotgun".

SNIP
IMO, an "accurate shotgun" is NOT what Gerald wants, unless I am mistaken!

Losing the nose is just the fastest way to get the "Best" shaped bullet for killing!
A "flat" nose is the best shape. and not a mushroom, and the flatter the better!

IMO, this is a good reading on terminal ballistics. Yes the author has his own conclusions, but gives a fair discussion to other theories ( some may not agree )

Whether you agree or not I think it makes for interesting reading.

Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories:
Terminal Ballistics


edge.
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  #72  
Old 06-27-2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

Edge,

We are in agreement that the Gerard design is, anything but, "shotgun" like in theory, or performance.

That article was great reading, thanks.

Paul,

The Match bullet is $1.30 at current copper prices... still expensive, but an "economy" alternative, and ballistically equivalent, to the hunt version. I have not priced the production cost of the ZA338/6.0-H out yet. I intended that it be used in the limited quantities directed against game only. The numbers will not work in any other way.

Best,
Noel
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  #73  
Old 06-27-2009, 12:14 PM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Eichele View Post
...This is one reason I prefer a more frangible bullet than not. I want to ensure they open at lower velocities. At close range, they explode. On a deer size critter it isnt much of a concern due to the narrow nature of the target. At long range the bullet simply opens up like a typical hunting bullet. Is this better? This is subjective. It is just what works for me. Again, with deer size critters in mind here. These principals dont apply here for much larger game.
Michael,

I think a lot of folks are under this impression but it is not always the case. Highly frangibl bullets don't neccessarily open at lower velocities than more controlled expansion bullets. The AB and the VLD are advertised to open at about the same velocity. Some SP lead nosed bullets may open at even slower speeds. The trade off in the case of the VLD is usually higher BC. In the case of the the 30 cal 210 VLD and GS HV 177, they both have about the same "advertised" BC. The GS bullet will open at velocities down to 1600 fps, 200 FPS lower than the 210 and will have an MV of about 400 fps faster than the 210. The GS will retain anywhere from 100% to about 70% of it's mass, depending on impact velocity and the sheding of its petals.

Quote:
The rest is for us to argue about as to which is better. I would like to see someone prove which is better. I doubt it will ever be done.
And people will always debate which is better. The problem of determing which is "better", is defing the term "better". Better is a subjective term and terminal ballistics can not be separated from other considerations such as external ballistics, cost, logistics, etc.

As for me, I already *know* which bullet is better, so I dont have to debate it

-MR
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  #74  
Old 06-27-2009, 12:23 PM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

Noel,

It looks to me like you have a good bullet. My only cautions are reliable expansion and terminal stability. I have read a few reports of poly tipped TTSX's and BT's not opening. These occcurances seem to be rare. But if I was shooting at a life time opportunity sheep and lost it because a bullet failed to open, I would surely be an unhappy camper. As it happens, I got my life time B&C ram with NPT's and they worked very well.. not bullets that I would pick for LR though.

Best wishes and success on your endevours to provide "better" ELRH bullets.

-MR

Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 06-27-2009 at 12:29 PM.
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  #75  
Old 06-27-2009, 12:27 PM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

Sorry MR,

I realize this isnt always the case and I should have been more specifec. I am talking with mostly AMAX's in mind. I have not yet shot any game with VLD's or GS bullets. As for AMAX's, they do explode at high velocity and open like a normal hunting bullet at low velocity causing a normal wound track. At least in my experience. This is why I like to use them in my 308. I get very good expansion at 800 yards at 308 velocities with them. The only thing I wont use them on is anything bigger than a mule deer. When I step up to the 300's, my options are broader due to the higher impact velocity. Since I hunt mostly with a 308, the AMAX or other rapidly expanding bullet is my go to strategy.
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  #76  
Old 06-27-2009, 01:02 PM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

Thanks MR,

The "better" ELRH bullet will be unveiled in two to three months with accompanying photographs, external/terminal ballistic data, and commentary by individuals who performed beta-testing.

Your caution on terminal stability is my only real concern, given the caliber/length ratio. So far no problems, but internal target tumbling is always a point of focus in a VLD design.

Best,
Noel
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  #77  
Old 06-27-2009, 03:17 PM
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Re: The Solid Bullet Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by noel carlson View Post
SNIP.

but internal target tumbling is always a point of focus in a VLD design.

Best,
Noel
IMO, another reason to lose the nose as fast as possible to move the CG rearward!

edge.
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