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SO called experts talking about LONG RANGE SHOOTING....

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Unread 10-02-2007, 12:11 PM
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Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
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So far I have done accuracy testing out to 3008 yards with my 338 Allen Magnum. I have tested many different chamberings out at ranges from 2300 to 2600 yards including: 257 AM, 6.5mm AM, 270 AM, 277 AM, 7mm RUM, 7mm AM, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 300 RUM, 30-378, 338 Lapua, 338-378 Wby and 50 BMG.

I did this to find the max range that I could get consistant accuracy to testing the super sonic bullet idea.

I was a bit suprised to see the results of this shooting. With conventional bullets such as the 162 gr A-Max, the 7mm RUM was limited to around 1600 yards with consistant groups. By that I mean sub moa and bullet impacts where they were supposed to repeatedly.

Jumping up to the 180 gr Bergers offered a good boost in max reach easily allowing me to reach out to 1900 yards with consistant bullet impacts.

Moving up to the extreme 200 gr ULD RBBT allowed me to push out to 2400 yards with accurate bullet placement and consistant bullet flight but not much past that point.

The best loads I have seen in the 300 RUM class of rounds would get around 2200 yards of consistant range before bullet flight and impact became inconsistant from shot to shot.

About the most ballistically potent rifle/chambering I have ever tested using conventional bullet designs is my 7mm AM loaded in a heavy, long barreled rifle. By that I mean a 34" pipe in a rifle of around 18 lbs. This combo allows the 200 gr ULD RBBT to be driven to 3400 fps in the correctly designed barrel and I have tested this combo out to 2800 yards with consistant bullet grouping and bullet trajectory. At 3000 yards, all is lost.

This will even out perform my huge 338 AM using the conventional 300 gr SMK or ULD RBBT loaded to 3400 fps. Terminal performance is not even a comparision but as far as shear ballistic performance, and remaining super sonic, the 7mm AM will top the 338 AM with this bullet as it maxes out at around 2700 yards with consistant bullet placement.

Now if you jump up into the class of bullet such as the new prototype Aluminum tipped bullets from Wildcat Bullets and load them to 3500 fps(out of my 33" light rifle!!!), for the first time, I have a combo at my 3500 ft altitude that the computer programs are telling is super sonic right 3000 yards. In testing at 3008 yards, I find these predictions to be true as I was getting 1 moa accuracy at that range which I personally feel is very good, if not world class.

Now, 2 miles, thats 3520 yards...... Thats over 500 yards past what I have been able to reach with the most extreme chambering and bullet on the market that I know of. To get a rifle to shoot consistant groups at that range would be something I would have to see to believe. I would say the best shot you would have would be a 338 AM with the right bullet choice but even then it will be a severely lucky shot to make a kill at that range on a P dog size critter.

I have heard of shooters taking the 308 WIn out to 2 miles. I just have to sit back and laugh at these comments and wonder what they mean by consistant accuracy at 2 miles with a 308 Win. Figure the best 308 loads will drop out of super sonic velocity at least then 1300 yards in most areas, you would still have 2220 yards for that bullet to travel consistantly and accurately after dropping out of super sonic velocity and passing through the trans sonic stages of velocity.

Now will a 308 bullet fired at 2650 fps reach 2 miles, certainly, if you put enough bullets in the air will you make a hit at long range, possibly. Does that mean you have effective and consistant performance at that range, certainly not!!!

Is it fun to try with the smaller calibers, yep, but it can become a waste of time to be honest if your goal is to get consistant grouping.

I know many, including myself are plenty happy to hold bullets into an moa group at extreme range. A close miss is often just as impressive as a hit at these ranges, espeically if you can do it repeatedly. Maybe that is what the author of this article is also doing but if you consider a +35" circle at 2 miles, you can put alot of air around a P. Dog in that circle so even if you have a rifle that will hold moa at that range, the hit % is EXTREMELY low, even with the best rifles in the world.

Is a hit required to be successful, again, certainly not, but consistant bullet flight and predictable bullet impact are critical to me.

Maybe not to others. I have no interest to throw a bullet in the air and then hit the glass to SEE where it may land, then throw another and see if this one lands close. If I can not get consistant grouping, I am not interested, thats why we are working to push the max range in our rifles as we are.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 10-16-2007, 10:51 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hatchet City, AB,Canada
Posts: 232
Any one notice that there has been no reply to this post over @ VHA forums?????? HUMMMMMMMMM
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Unread 10-16-2007, 12:26 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: FREE RUN, MS
Posts: 774
Whats the VHA got to do with Long Range Hunting?
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Unread 10-17-2007, 08:21 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 371
Yeah...Anyday now.
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Unread 10-17-2007, 10:48 PM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by NYLES View Post
Whats the VHA got to do with Long Range Hunting?
I think they're trying to call out the smith in question on the forum he posts on (VHA). And I couldn't agree with you more Kirby. I've been able to teach relative newbies to shoot and hit things consistantly at 600-700 yards fairly easily. I still have a rough time at 1k yards...
The problem with this guy writing articles like this is it could potentially inspire some yahoo to start shooting at distance w/out practicing or taking proper steps of safety and will end up shooting someones pet or something and it'll give us - the long range community a black eye. Hopefully he comes to his senses instead of preaching his non-sense... Unfortunately what can you do...
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Unread 10-18-2007, 09:02 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: FREE RUN, MS
Posts: 774
A black eye to long range hunting is a black eye to hunting period, we all have a favorite way to hunt but when looked at by the nonhunter/antihunter a black eye is a black eye to us all. Kinda funny we attempt to seperate ourselves from each other but we are all still hunters.....

Down here I begin the season as a bow hunter Oct....then I become a youth guide for Katie (or any other kid that wants a chance) for a week early Nov....then a rifle hunter mid NOV...then Im A muzzle loader early DEC....then back to the rifle mid DEC....and then JAN 31 its all over!

Throw at least 1 Duck hunt into that.....oh yea a few days squirrel hunting(not really just an excuse to scout) least 1 dove hunt....Ive been stalking hogs(varmits) with a bow the last few afternoons....just something a lil different.

I will say that my passion is hunting whitetails but all in all a hunter is a hunter....and we all gotta I MEAN GOTTA.....GET ALONG!

Guess thats my rant for today! just to keep this on track we can argue till the sun comes up about equipment. I think mossy oak has that going on in a commercil about what color a leaf is for about 30 secs TV time. Damn I got off in lala land with that one but its a good read ill leave it here!

Last edited by NYLES; 10-18-2007 at 09:13 AM.
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Unread 10-18-2007, 10:13 AM
gbp gbp is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California
Posts: 227
"""""Kirby Allen can not make a rifle that will shoot minute of P. dog at 2 miles!!!!""""""

Laugh my ass off.

Does this mean I can't use the 338 AM you're building for me to shoot ground squirrels at two miles.

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