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SO called experts talking about LONG RANGE SHOOTING....

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Unread 09-25-2007, 02:28 PM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 1,877

Thanks for the complement. It seems there is no middle road people either just don't believe long range shooting is anything but luck or if I had equipment like that I could shoot a mile too. Kirby pretty much hit the nail on the head. From my point of view there is long range shooting and there is extreme range shooting. Long range shooting can be learned with good equipment in a fairly short amount of time. I teach newbies how to be effective 600-700 yard hunters in 2 days pretty easy. However 1000+ yards hunting is a different story. I have been an avid long range hunter for almost 20 years now and I learn new lessons everytime I hunt or shoot longe ranges. To be able to look at a shot and take a high % 1st round shot takes more skill and experience the further out you go. At a given distance every shooter / gun combo with get to a point where 1st round hits are pure assed luck. Varmint hunting is a little different but I still am mostly interested only in what I can do on round # 1.
Shawn Carlock
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Unread 09-25-2007, 03:57 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: N. TX
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by davewilson View Post
i don't know what's so hard about shooting at 3800. i regularly shoot groundhogs past 5k with my 22lr....then i wake up, SSS, and off to work i go.

come on Kirby, we need a name. this guy doesn't deserve our business.
Really, I am with Dave here on both accounts... haven't all of us long range hunters learned wind doping by shooting a bow to 300 yards... shoot, I learned most of my real skills by shooting my 17 Humongous Magnum Rifle to 1k... really tricky with those 26 gr. bullets at 5K FPS, sure makes those really hairy shots to 4k with my 257 Roberts a no brainer.... then I wake up with a grin on my face, tongue sticking out of my cheek, till I realize I have to go to work instead of shooting. Looks like this guy was still asleep at the typewriter (ahem...).

I have read a lot of the older VHA mags, and really appreciated their articles, don't they have an editor? I realize that questioning an 'Authority' is hard to do, but sheesh... this is a BIG problem, I don't know about you guy's, but I have had acquaintances that make the claim of 'I shot her at 800 yards, just held my trusty Leupold scoped 270 a smidge over her back and Whammo...' this is a big problem for me, as calling BS on someone you just met has a rather detrimental effect to the rest of your relationship (sorry, sometimes you are just destined to not get along with your father in law... oops, there is that tongue sticking to my cheek again). What is it in human nature that makes some of us into absolute morons? I just don't get it... someone must have skipped the Brains line when Our Father was handing those out.

EZ Shooter
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Unread 09-25-2007, 04:18 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: N. TX
Posts: 92
Another thing - Shawn, Kirby, I really appreciate your opinions and your openess to sharing it with the forum... but as anyone that has had one of his/her rifles built for them by you knows, the last thing you need to be doing is reading a magazine and taking a break... I mean come on, I speak for all of us that are in the waiting line, let's treat your experience and knowledge like it is meant to be - little buried nuggets of info/gold, that us mere mortals have to ferret out by using a really obnoxious wheedling tone in our emails to you... not put out in the open forum for everyone to see! Plus, you should be somewhere holed up forging WMD's (or something of the sort - I think a 338 Edge/AM/Kahn qualifies, as long as you consider all of what it will do in its life, instead of a singular event... but I digress).

Please take the last two posts with a grain of salt and a good dose of skepticism as they are meant to be humorous about a serious subject - I drank way too much coffee this afternoon. Now, stop laughing and go back to work!

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Unread 09-25-2007, 08:53 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Back in the south -NW FL..
Posts: 1,160
quote from shawn -
"At a given distance every shooter / gun combo with get to a point where 1st round hits are pure assed luck. Varmint hunting is a little different but I still am mostly interested only in what I can do on round # 1."

I'd say 99% of the people here would agree with that.

For me the first shot is the only shot ,i can only dope the wind REALLY well to 500yds w/a 25-06 -on a coyote size target.Doesn't sound like much but i'm proud of it ,1,000yds w/my small mid-size guns isn't realistic to me.

I remember seeing the rifle the guy shot a praire-dog w/ at 3200 yds ,the rings were 5-6 inchs up off the reciever and had a dial system unlike anything i've ever seen.

To a person w/any REAL knowledge of longrange shooting -if the editor had stated even half the distance/range = 1,500 yards = the article would have been just as ridiculous.

I think the editor/gunsmith deserves to be called out on this one -in a polite way of coarse ....
AIPAC for president !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 09-25-2007, 09:59 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: on the rifle range in Utah
Posts: 2,704
Now, I don't know about some of the huge overbore magnums based off the 408 CHYTAC or 50 BMG blown out using Wildcat bullets or something the likes thereof, but nothing I run on a ballistic program will stay supersonic to 3000 yards. And from extensive shooting at 2000 yards, I can say that this guy had no idea what he was talking about. Once a bullet goes subsonic from a transonic state, it is pretty much crapshoot.

And anyone who discredits a 2000 yard shot as easy obviously has never tried it themselves and 3000 yards would be exponentially harder.
Find it
Range it
Click it
Pull it
Dump it

If it's not far, it's boring.
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Unread 09-26-2007, 06:13 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NC, oceanfront
Posts: 3,975
I think it's as easy for anyone as it is for you.
Just shoot & shoot & shoot till hitting something.
Big deal....
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Unread 09-26-2007, 10:44 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
First off, thanks for the kind words but I want to make it clear that I am in no where near the same class as Shawn is at long range shooting and instructing others at it.

I can make a good rifle, I am confident in that, I can also shoot pretty well, in my element that is. When I went to Idaho and hunted with Shawn, I had to deal with issues that this flat lander never had to deal with much before and I was very thankful Shawn was there with me which leads me to another point.

No matter how experienced you are at shooting, no matter what quality of gear you are holding onto or plugging data into, your first shot hits will ALWAYs increase in % with the addition of another set of eyes there with you to discuss the conditions. That is not always possible but it is always a help if you can have it.

I also want to clearify that when dealing with big game hunting, there is no other option that first shot kills. Will it happen everytime? If you hunt enough, you will always miss from time to time but thats at anyrange. If you have a bit of doubt in your mind that you can make the shot, you better clear that chamber and either pass on the shot or move closer, there is no shame in either, in fact there is more shame in not being honest with yourself in the field. That is just disrespectful of our sport and more importantly the animals we intend to harvest.

So as far as big game hunting, I am of the same idea that the first shot is the critical shot. There should be no such thing as walking a bullet into a big game animal.

Now as far as varmint hunting and just flat out extreme range shooting, I have no problem with this to some degree. I get a bit unimpressed when I hear about varmint hunters qualifying for the down range clubs in the Varmint hunters association when you read someone qualified for the 1000 yard club using a 223 Rem loaded with the 40 gr Ballistic Tip because if it happened at all, you know full well there was either 100% flat out luck involved or a salvo of bullets sent down range that would impress anyone!!!

I wish this data was included with the Down Range club qualifying shots. It would not make any difference, it would just tell you more about the actual shot and if it was expected by the shooter or a flat out suprise when the P Dog fell over.

Now in testing the extreme range of my 338 Allen Magnum, I will walk shots in to a target. I have not done alot of testing at 3000 yards but what I have done has shown me that the current Ballistic programs leave some to be desired at ranges much past 2500 yards. I think we have alot of learning to do at these ranges. Hell, we are just getting started to have rounds that can reach that far with super sonic velocity.

Will say with conventional bullets such as the 300 gr SMK, even the 338 AM will not get to 3K super sonic, not at my 3500 ft altitude anyway, well, probably not at any altitude.

the new 265 gr AT RBBT however pushes very close to that range limit with super sonic velocity at 3500 ft. THe ballistic programs tell me this and more importantly, the consistant bullet impacts at 3008 yards tell me this more then anything. again, if they drop out of super sonic velocity, your done with consistancy.

As far as the comment about Shawn and I being the Tiger Woods of this sport, I think we both have the desire to offer all we know to others and want to push the limits of our sport to new levels but I personally am no different then anyone else out there. I have been long range shooting for about 1/2 as long as Shawn and there are MANY on this board alone that have much more to offer then I do. The way I see it we are all working together, why not offer what we all know for the purpose of nothing else but to save time and money for others wanting to test or try the same exact thing over again. That is how you make great gains in performance limits, not by hoarding information.

That is one thing I feel we have over the competition side of shooting. I have been to many local BR shoots, the atmosphere is not warm and relaxed, its often a bit edgy especially with the upper end shooters.

Tactical style shooters can also be a bit edgy, if its not a 223, 308, 300 Win Mag or maybe the 338 Lapua, your doing it wrong and they will tell you as much.

In out sport, everyone is welcome to come, everyone can use what they want and there are very few that will not offer to help anyway they can. The 50 cal shooters association is much this same way, that is why I am happy to be part of both.

STill, a fair amount of realistic thinking needs to be used in our sport when talking with new comers. More damage can be done giving them partial trueths about long range shooting then any good will come of it.

Luckily, it seems eventually, if someone wants to get into long range shooting, they come across someone like the members on this board and they get a realistic point of view.

I just do not like to see an upper rung gunsmith saying its certainly within your grasp to shoot out to 3600 or 3800 yards to a bunch of shooters who think their 220 Swifts are the hottest, flattest shooting rifles on the planet.

Again, thanks for the kind words, I will not speak for Shawn but I know for a fact there are dozens of shooters on this board alone that have as much or more experience then I do. As far as Shawn goes, he is closer to Tiger then I am!!! Course, i think Tiger has alot more hair then either of us!!!


Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

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