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seat vld's to the lands or off a bit?

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Unread 06-11-2003, 07:36 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 2,517
Re: seat vld\'s to the lands or off a bit?

I have gotten measurably smaller groups when loading bullets into the rifling on my 22-243AI (8 twist) and my 7STW (10 twist). Other rifles either wouldn't allow the bullets to be loaded out that far or did not benefit from loading that way.
Just my 2 cents
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Unread 06-12-2003, 06:36 PM
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Re: seat vld\'s to the lands or off a bit?

Rufous.... I like a 30 degree angle from a parallel neck to a parallel free bore area leading to a 1 degree throat. The amount that you place a bullet into the lands is affected by several things, whether you have a 3 groove, 4 groove, or six groove barrel. The angle of your throat, and how tight your free bore area is, will all affect how far into the lands your rifle will prefer the bullet to be.

I look at neck tension as an either/or situation. Either your hunting dangerous game and need significant neck tension along with needing to not stuff a bullet into the lands, or you're in a pure accuracy situation where you may optimize neck tension and bullet seating depth to maximize accuracy. In the ultimate accuracy scenario I think light neck tension is the way to go. I like about .0012 press fit into the neck. With light neck tension and the bullet seated about .005" longer than the round is if it is extracted before firing. In other words, chambering the round pushes the bullet back about .005" into the neck. This works very well with light neck tension.

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Unread 06-12-2003, 11:50 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Walla Walla, WA
Posts: 174
Re: seat vld\'s to the lands or off a bit?

S1, please elaborate on your comments. What do you mean by a properly designed chamber and what do you mean by into the lands? Would into the lands be 0.005" into them or 0.010" or what? I imagine it would be a matter of experimenting how much to go into the lands like we are used to varying how far off the lands. Also can you comment on neck tension. This is something I have not messed with, except that I have been using a Lee Factory Crimp Die on my 300 Win Mag. When seating into the lands would one want more neck tension? Finally does your statement that all guns with proper chambers should shoot their best with bullets into the lands apply only to target/varmint/vld type bullets or are you finding that it also applies to big game bullets? Are you a gunsmith? If not who does your gunsmithing? Thanks, Rufous.

[ 06-12-2003: Message edited by: rufous ]
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Unread 06-14-2003, 12:11 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: wa
Posts: 40
Re: seat vld\'s to the lands or off a bit?

Thanks for the input. I just got home from Tacoma,WA. Work took me there for 2 1/2 weeks and I'm glad to be back. Next week I leave for SD to shgoot some P-dogs. Before I left to Tacoma, I shot some groups w/ the 6-284. 107 gr SMK's mollied w/ 56.5 gr rl22 gave me 2 3-shot groups of 3/4" @200 yards. Neck tension was right at .003, and runout out was .0015 or less. The only thing I can't test for is seating into the lands, as my chamber won't allow it. So, after my trip to SD, I'll address it again. My smith is Dennis Olsen in Plains MT. Very well respected from what I understand. I will bring it up w/ him first, and then go from there.
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Unread 06-14-2003, 10:52 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Walla Walla, WA
Posts: 174
Re: seat vld\'s to the lands or off a bit?

S1, thanks so much for the info. This is most interesting stuff. It brings up some more questions though. You mention a 30 degree angle from neck to throat (freebore). Is 30 degrees standard or are chambers cut with a wide range of transitional angles? Also you prefer a 1 degree leade. Is there that much difference between a 1 degree and the more standard 1.5 degree leade? What difference would there be between the two leade angles? Am I envisioning it correctly that a 1 degree leade would be a gentler transition to the lands than a 1.5 degree leade? You said that the number of grooves the barrel has will affect the amount the bullet should engage the lands. Do you have a normal amount into the lands for a 3 groove and 4 groove and 6 groove? Let us assume we have a 300 Winchester Magnum with a 1.5 degree leade and a parallel throat that is 0.3083” in diameter on a 4 groove and on a 6 groove barrel. How much into the lands would you likely see these setups shooting at their best? What kind of range in seating depths do you experience with the various parameters? Are we talking that you have found all your rifles shooting best at just touching the lands to as much as 0.015” into the lands or is the range more than that? When I say just touching the lands I should specify that I determine that depth by use of the Stoney Point tool.
How far can one seat the bullet into the lands without the lands seating the bullet into the case? I suppose that would depend on neck tension. I do not understand what you mean by 0.0012” press fit of neck tension. Does that mean that the inside diameter of the neck is 0.3068” after resizing and before seating the bullet? I am using standard dies, not the Redding bushing dies so I can only decrease neck tension by turning necks (I am not confident that I could grind the expander ball accurately in order to reduce neck tension). Again my major application is for a big game rifle so I need more neck tension than a benchrest shooter would and of course my accuracy needs are no where near as great.
Finally I am still wondering if this all applies to match bullets only or do you find that the big game bullets (Nosler Partition, Barnes X etc) also shoot best when seated into the lands?
Thanks again for offering your experience to the rest of us, Rufous.
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