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SD, or ifSD?

 
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  #8  
Old 06-10-2013, 12:46 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,373
Re: SD, or ifSD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfseaman View Post

OOOOOKKKKKK. What is the point.

I have never seen a mosin Nagant at a precision shoot or any other service weapon.

Lots of the service weapons will shoot very well but not bench rest or long range precision
hunting. They were not made for that purpose and distance.

Just my opinion.

J E CUSTOM
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  #9  
Old 06-11-2013, 12:12 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: California Central Cost
Posts: 716
Re: SD, or ifSD?

The pure fun of it.

No you won't find it at a precision match but you will find it at the range getting shooting time.

Just because it don't float your boat doesn't mean that someone else wont have a good time with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
OOOOOKKKKKK. What is the point.

I have never seen a mosin Nagant at a precision shoot or any other service weapon.

Lots of the service weapons will shoot very well but not bench rest or long range precision
hunting. They were not made for that purpose and distance.

Just my opinion.

J E CUSTOM
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  #10  
Old 06-11-2013, 06:02 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 122
Re: SD, or ifSD?

JE Custom said in a polite manner, that Shooting a Mosin Nagant and worrying about the effects of actual barrel diameter on bullet sd just doesn't fit ;)

A 180gr .311 caliber bullet and a 180gr .308 caliber bullet of similar formfactor
would have ballistic coefficients of .5 and .51 respectively.
Launched at 2600 fps in a 10mph 03 o'clock wind you would see a difference in wind drift of 2.5 cm and 6cm in drop [ps: at 1000yards].
That's insignificant, more important might be to what degree the bullet is damaged when launched in a barrel of wrong diameter.

Effects on terminal ballistics are again most propably due to damage to the bullet and not due to a minor changes in sd.
The bullets construction is much more important than initial sd anyway.
That determines the bullet's ability to change sd inside the target medium.
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  #11  
Old 06-11-2013, 08:07 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,373
Re: SD, or ifSD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfseaman View Post
The pure fun of it.

No you won't find it at a precision match but you will find it at the range getting shooting time.

Just because it don't float your boat doesn't mean that someone else wont have a good time with it.

I don't mean to sound like I don't like to shoot one, just that I would not use one for long range.
I am all for having fun.

I love to shoot the old service weapons and have owned many of them but with the ammo situation
I shoot them far less than I use to. Unfortunately, the days of going to the range and burning 500
to 1000 rounds is gone for me, and precision shooting is still a practical/possible way of enjoying
shooting for less ammo expense.

There are however some rules that I wont break. One is shooting the wrong size bullets for a rifle.
If it has a .311 bore dia that's the size of the bullets that I use. some of the ole rifles have different
bore sizes than we use today( .223 instead of .224, .307 instead of .308) are just some examples.
and if I cant find or make the proper size bullets, I sell the rifle and don't worry about it or it becomes
a safe queen.

There have been cases of different size bullets being used with a certain amount of success but the
practice is risky. PO Ackley fired some 8mm rounds through a 30/06 to study the effects. He reported
that there were no dangerous pressure effects but he did not recommend anyone doing
the same thing. I is common practice to use .224 bullets in a 22 hornet with .223 dia bore But that
does not make it OK.

If a person substitutes components they are risking problems that are not necessary.

So just because someone is doing it doesn't make it safe it just means that they are willing to risk
it and in a different rifle it could be fatal.

Be careful and have fun.

J E CUSTOM
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  #12  
Old 06-11-2013, 09:50 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2
Re: SD, or ifSD?

First, Thank you Gentlemen. I had no idea that this volume of quality info could be had on any public board in just a single day. I quit them about 10 years ago being just turned off by how people always just degenerated into conversations similar to what's developing here. Hey- we are what we are though.

I'll accept that I'm thinking too much. I'm not at the technical point in my prowess to be worried about those effects translating onto the "target". I have yet to get any trigger work done.

Myself I understand Fred's sentiment. I shoot for fun. I learn for fun(and brain exercise). Let me extend Fred's point a bit with an analogy using my favorite group of backward enthusiasts- bicyclists. They will pay a few thousand dollars so that their exercise can be easier... carbon fibre bike, shave all the hair, teflon stretchypants.. etc. Me I would strap on a huffy and a large windbreaker and get 3x the amount of exercise per mile than them... because it's HARDER.

So I buy a $5000 marksman rifle and I can hit a target at 800 yards under MOA... but my BUDDY, he can get under MOA at 600 yards with his NAGANT! One of us is truly doing something special.

Funny really, I don't disagree with the counter opinions regarding war weapons.. but one of my 54R's is tight to 308, a late 70's 27" finnish army marksman/sniper trainer, based on the Nagant. fully ALL of my long range target shootin' is strictly with war weapons including Lee ENfield (can't beat that report), 1903A3, M14. Can't beat the prices either. I still get to "tune" them with diminishing returns but improvement is success and it feels just as good.

The M28/76 is floated by the army already.. and that trigger- wow. How cool is the peepsight?? original euro tracks for sling and bipod! There may have been one of 2 of these aimed at terrorists durign the olympic games fiasco back in the day. (See Mr Willard, I CAN combine firearms and history.. you were wrong, and you're still a high school history teacher.)

Some take-aways then...

1. "in-flight" Sectional Density is technically better when a given bullet is fired through a statistically tight bore verses a loose one of the same base caliber... but "not by enough that it matters".

2. a .308 diam bullet fired through a tight-bore .311 rifle does *not* have "better ballistics" than a .311 diam bullet fired through same. They are equal even though they started out at different diameters..

3. SD is calculated using unfired diameter and weight... and I say that method is just a bit flawed technically.

Ok Guys.. thank you sincerely for the input. I plan on learning more about the concepts you have presented by revisiting the text a dozen times as I progress.

Last edited by Delmer; 06-11-2013 at 10:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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