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View Poll Results: Would you buy a Rem 700
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Remington 700 quality

 
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  #92  
Old 04-18-2012, 09:55 AM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

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Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
I've recently heard from folks well entrenched in military sniper rifle accuracy and they say the recent Rem 700 based sniper rifles don't shoot all that great compared to the early ones.
You'd think those guys would get the best without regard to expense or other factors.
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  #93  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:28 AM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

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Originally Posted by Mike 338 View Post
You'd think those guys would get the best without regard to expense or other factors.
No, I wouldn't think that . . . after reading about what happened not too long ago. The .338 Lapua Mag was out performed at long range by the .300 Win. Mag. in tests qualifing rifles for military sniper rifles. But the Army had a "fixation" about the .338 and ignored the .300 Win. Mag that shot more accurate.

And the US military powers chose the Rem. 700 action over the far superior Win. 70 action for the new sniper rifle back in the late 1960's.
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  #94  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:42 AM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

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Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
No, I wouldn't think that . . . after reading about what happened not too long ago. The .338 Lapua Mag was out performed at long range by the .300 Win. Mag. in tests qualifing rifles for military sniper rifles. But the Army had a "fixation" about the .338 and ignored the .300 Win. Mag that shot more accurate.

And the US military powers chose the Rem. 700 action over the far superior Win. 70 action for the new sniper rifle back in the late 1960's.
a little more to it than your post. They tried the Win. Md. 70 in Vietnam, and moved over to the 700. Now noone has really said why all that much, but the end user prefered the Remington based rifle. Kind of a moote point anyway when looking at distances involved with 85% of the shots taken. Considering the time frame and most rifles were chambered in 30-06; the Winchester might have had a slight advantage (I'm not seeing it) in action length. But those real long bullets didn't exist at the time. But when we made the move to the 7.62x51 the ball game changed. The Winchester short action was slightly longer. But the one real advantage I see with the Winchester is in the saftey lever. You don't have to move your hand as much to move it. Yet by far the most kills in a sniper's rifle was with a N.M. M14 (thus a moote point). The very long distance stuff was (or has) been taken over by the big bore stuff. Yet the four hundred yard shot was the norm. Unless you live in some super remote place in North America (Alaska?), most of us don't know what silence is really like. You can hear an Ak47 or an RPD in use four hundred yards away. The Winchester is probably slightly quieter in use. I'll have to have a beer with a certain scout sniper in my VFW post to get his view point on the subject. I do know that's the SOG teams didn't like the bolt guns at all for covert use, as they were considered to be too noisey in operation.

All still kinda of a dull point anyway. Considering that 90% of all KIA's are under 100 yards, and 85% of them are under 75 yards. On the battlefield 85% of all KIA's come from arty, and another 10% come from air strikes. That leaves the other guys doing 5%. Nothing new, as it's been a known fact for 70 years or more. There will always be snipers in one form or another, but for most of them their days are numbered.
gary
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  #95  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:06 PM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
a little more to it than your post. They tried the Win. Md. 70 in Vietnam, and moved over to the 700. Now noone has really said why all that much, but the end user prefered the Remington based rifle.
The "end users" I talked with in the late '60's and early '70's preferred the Win. 70 action. GySgt Hathcock told me that himself at the 1971 Interservice Rifle Matches. None of the long range competitors in the services like the Rem. actions and a lot of them were also snipers.
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  #96  
Old 04-18-2012, 03:34 PM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

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Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
The "end users" I talked with in the late '60's and early '70's preferred the Win. 70 action. GySgt Hathcock told me that himself at the 1971 Interservice Rifle Matches. None of the long range competitors in the services like the Rem. actions and a lot of them were also snipers.
Nevr heard anybody say why, but a good hint is that the U.S. Palma teams prefered Winchesters. Even though they did try Remingtons and even Rugers. Funny thing is that with 95% of the yardages used in Vietnam; a good M1D would have been plenty good enough! S.F. A-teams prefered the M14 N.M. over bolt guns due to their much faster second shot factor. Those guys could had anything they wanted to use. As a sniper's rifle, I've long felt that the bolt gun was over rated.
gary
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  #97  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:12 PM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
Nevr heard anybody say why, but a good hint is that the U.S. Palma teams prefered Winchesters. Even though they did try Remingtons and even Rugers.
As a former Palma and US Goodwill International Team member, here's some info you should consider.

Yes, (most of) the US Palma Team members did prefer the Winchester action, but only through the 1992 world match. The reason was any bullet could be used in Palma matches fired in the USA under USA NRA rules. I wrote the first NRA High Power Rule Book regulation for the Palma rifle, it has subsequently been modified. Some folks used 200, 220 and even 250-gr. bullets in the .308 Win case. With bullets heavier than 160 grains from the .308 case, round receivers didn't hold epoxy bedding very long before their accuracy dropped off. Barreled action touque was the problem. But the rectangular Winchester receiver held bedding good enough to wear out a couple of barrels before it needed touched up. This problem was worse with belted magnums used under NRA Any Rifle rules for long range. One or two of the US military teams tried 2-inch long recoil lugs on Remington receivers but that didn't work. Only after gluing a Remington reciever in a flat side/bottom aluminum sleeve did they do well. Several folks sleeved Remington receivers for the .308 Win. round. Benchresters have been sleeving Remingtons for decades since the 1970's or earlier for their 22 and 24 caliber one-holers with 50 to 70 grain bullets for the same reason.

Outside the USA where only arsenal 7.62 NATO ammo's allowed in long range matches and everyone has to use the same ammo lot, those new cases shot more accurate from 3- or 4-lug actions. The ammo's slightly out of square case heads's the problem. A 2-lug action usually doesn't shoot that ammo well unless it just happens to have very square case heads. Fortunately, the ammo used in the 1992 International Palma Matches in the USA had Winchester cases that were probably the best ones ever made in this country. Winchester had to retool their production line 2 or 3 times to make those 92 PALMA headstamped cases. Nowadays, a Stolle Panda 3-lug or a Paramount/RPG 4-lug action's the favorite in the USA for international competition. Not surprising as in 1971, George Swenson in England made a 4-lug action the British Commonwealth fullbore shooters used for arsenal ammo that was far superior to their SMLE rifles chambered for the 7.62 NATO round. Some folks in the USA used that "Swing" action for their Palma rifles. The Barnard 4-lug action from Australia was also a favorite. I have a Paramount action for my Palma rifle. But a Winchester or Remington will shoot reloaded cases with 155-gr. Palma bullets very well.

The Remington 700/40X rifles were never issued to the US Palma Team. In the early 1990's, Remington offered to build 20 rifles on their 40X action for the US Palma Team. The Team Captain declined. Their problems with extractors, inconsistant triggers, and barrels that plagued them since their Model 7XX and 40X inception were still an issue. And Remington wanted to use a 1:10 twist barrel instead of a 1:13 that was best for 30 caliber bullets in the 147 to 155 grain weights. Ruger offered some rifles on a modified single shot Model 77 action. Their factory rifle folks didn't know what a Palma rifle was nor what it had to do so the just slapped some together. They were checked out by team members in late 1991. I got to handle a couple and was not impressed with them at all; their expoy bedding wasn't done right as it had a long pad under the breech end of the barrel. Worst rifle for accuracy the Team members had ever fired. To say nothing of the poor stock design and bad triggers. Ruger's best engineers decided to use barrels from a company (Green Mountain) that made black powder rifle barrels instead of one of the top aftermarket barrel companies that had a reputation for making good ones. Half had 4-groove barrels and half had 6 grooves; those with 6 grooves shot the worst. Only one was able to hold the 1000-yard 10 ring for accuracy, and then just barely. I wonder what all this says about Ruger's opinions on their factory .308 Win. barrels they used on their 77's.
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  #98  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:42 PM
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Re: Remington 700 quality

Bart, Gary,

I am enjoying reading this history stuff. ALOT.

It may get lost in this thread however.

I will continue to watch for posts from you two as I do some of the other very knowledgeable members of the forum.

Thanks for taking the time to write this stuff!
__________________
“When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such governments. …” Jefferson

We are very close to this point now.
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