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A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

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Unread 12-02-2005, 10:25 PM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

RM, no problem. The idiots are the ones that discovered America, broke the sound barrier - in a car, and put a man on the moon (the heros would put a women). Some also got to go over the recent very loud noise with a person with wings and a shiney white robe [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It's all good when you don't have a pressure guage. Well, kind of.

GG, never said anything of that sort. In fact, you can add me to that list of handloading enthusiast that spends hours and dollars to find a better mousetrap. Ever heard of the 6.5 Mystic? got a minute, it really is the next best mousetrap...

Nope, all I am saying is that all our testing has lead to the simple conclusion that with the gunpowders we have today, we are quickly approaching the point of diminishing returns. The bar has been raised tremendously over the last 40yrs, but quantum changes have been few and far between.

Plus once we review the results using modern pressure equipment, we find that many eurekas had simpler more mundane solutions. Damn that Newton idiot...

Wildcatting is now about optimizing a very narrow niche (your PPC and BR examples), at least in the eyes of the designer (the 6.5 Mystic that will soon take over the shooting world. It really has some benefits not offered by any other case). I hope that someday, with new tech, we can move ahead. Refer to that article on unobtainium powders and such.

The short range BR game seems to have found its perfect cartridge. How come the LR game hasn't yet?

How we get a 180gr 30cal bullet to 3000fps will have little interest to the game shot or to the reaction of said game? Some will use a full length magnum, others a short fat case. It's all good and all part of the fun.

If not, we would all be using Mr. Mausers rather boring invention over 100yrs old and that would be that. Or maybe, something designed in Springfield almost 100yrs ago.

And you would never need ships cause they would just fall off the edge of the Earth...and the speed limit is 60mph not 600 you idiot!!!


PS my personal wildcats now number 4 and counting.
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Unread 12-03-2005, 06:13 AM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

Jerry Teo

<<RM, no problem. The idiots are the ones that discovered America, broke the sound barrier - in a car, and put a man on the moon (the heros would put a women). Some also got to go over the recent very loud noise with a person with wings and a shiney white robe>>

Beg your pardon but the above scenarios were very well CALCULATED RISK! Folks that continuously push the upper end of the pressure level envelope with cartridges/rifles, in most cases DON'T HAVE A CLUE as to what they're doing and in essence are playing with a ticking time-bomb!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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Unread 12-03-2005, 11:23 AM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

all I am saying is that all our testing has lead to the simple conclusion that with the gunpowders we have today, we are quickly approaching the point of diminishing returns.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> This is exactly the reason why I like to look at things going in the opposite direction and is my whole basis for finding a more efficient case. Instead of putting more and more powder into an already overbore case, I look at it from the standpoint of "lets shrink the case, change some angles, and see if we can maintain the original velocity or even surpass it.
I believe this is a goal worthy of our best efforts. At least until we have laser guns!

Tell us about the Mystic and why it is different or more efficient.
Find it
Range it
Click it
Pull it
Dump it

If it's not far, it's boring.
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Unread 12-03-2005, 12:14 PM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.


In the case of PO Ackleys test with the 30-06 and AI version, I believe they were in 24" test barrels. In this barrel length, with this bore diameter and with the powders he had to use at the time, yes I would say the AI offers little over what the standar 06 offers with these peramiters.

Again, you are correct, its an expansion ratio issue.

As far as my 7mm Allen Mag is concerned. There are several reasons why it performs to a higher level then the top loaded 7mm RUM rifles.

1. Yes I load it to the top working ranges of the parent case. I would not say I run it to the red line as I have yet to ever loosen a primer pocket on any of my test loads or ammo that I use in the field.

Comparing the 338 Lapua and the 7mm RUM case, the Lapua will handle VASTLY higher chamber pressures then the RUM Case will simply because of the design of the case. But that is not why it can be loaded to higher velocity.

2. My chamber is designed very tight, especially in the case head area. The reason is to limit as much case expansion as possible. As such, yes it can handle more pressure then most other cases.

3. Yes there is certainly a case capacity advantage, about the max capacity that is usible with bullets in the 160-175 gr case capacity. With the 200 gr ULD RBBT, it is a very usible case volume with the slow burners.

Again, I would agree, it comes down to cubic inches in the chamber, grains of powder, high pressure and strong cases. Only way to make a case hold more powder is to basically improve it to some degree which is what the 7mm AM is so to speak.

Do I think the 7mm AM is more efficent then a 7mm RUM, no.

Will it outperform the 7mm RUM in velocity and energy and trajectory, yes but as noted this is a product of more powder, more pressure and most importantly having a rifle designed properly to handle that increase in powder and pressure.

I am in total agreement with you that a large dose of powder is the only way to get higher velocity, best way to increase powder capacity is to sharpen the shoulder and widen the shoulder diameter.

As far as efficency with Improved still rounds, there does come a point where you cross a line with stick powders. Taking the expansion ratio extremely low raises issues as well such as powder bridging.

With my 257 AM this is a major issue and any stick powders will result in serious pressure spikes simply because the sharpe shoulder holds that powder, actually locks that powder into the case and pressure spikes severely at times. With Ball powders this problem is basically eliminated but there is a line as far as expansion ratios are concerned as well.

At this time I am playing with a system to solve this problem and if it works will change the way we look at extremely low expansion ratio designs and their practicality.

Good discussion, never offended by comments from another shooter that are based in fact and experience, thats how we all learn more in the end. The thing we all need to keep in mind is that data will vary from one rifle to another and as such, two different people may come to differnet conclusions on a subject from the data they collected, thats what makes out sport so challanging, everytime you pick up a new firearm, things can be dramatically different then what your used to or predicting. Keeps us on our toes.

Most importantly we need to realize this and when someone questions our data, both sides need to realize that things can turn out very differently with two different testing proceedures, accept the variations, learn from them and store it all in out experience banks. Thats what makes LRH such a great place!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

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Unread 12-03-2005, 10:17 PM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

RM, wildcatters as a group are the cutting edge of cartridge development. Most of the commercial cartridges we enjoy today were developed by wildcatters. Even some factory cases...

I most certainly do not take any unnecessary risks in the development or modification of loads. Saying that I do is pretty presumptive.

Believe, my procedures are more structured then most loaders and I know to the tenth where my rifles are, even in cases that digest 100grs of powder. Yes, I don't have pressure gear but rely on other methods to keep me from that big loud noise.

You are most certainly right that the realm that I and some others play in IS NOT FOR THE AVERAGE RELOADER. You can get very hurt if you don't know what you are doing.

However, knowledge is what we seek and the only way to learn is to try what is not the norm. In short, that is R&amp;D in a nutshell.

GG, good luck with your quest. There are optimized case/cals/bullet design for every powder and task. And as powders change, there will be new perfect combos.

I don't think I would get too excited about lasers. In fact, they are pretty darn boring. Unless, they are the aiming device for some falling object that makes a really big bang on impact.

The 338 Mystic uses the 300RUM brass as its base. The design involves using off the shelf reamers and components as much as possible. The throat is extended to fit the 300gr MK. In long barrels, the performance should be in the 3000 to 3100fps range.

An affordable LR cannon. Barreled action completed still waiting for barrel block to complete.

The 7 Mystic is about to begin. My version of the 280AI and based on the simple fact that custom dies are a real pain and expensive. This wildcat came about as an experiment with '06 brass and 7RM dies. I expect performance in the same realm as the 280AI, 7JRS and other similar wildcats.

I just don't need expensive dies...

The 22Mystic was another experiment based on a barrel and action that was collecting dust. My first endeavor and well, let's just say a design only the designer would love.

Ends as a long necked 221 Fireball (think of it as a 222Rem short). At least I was thinking outside the box.

The design that has really tickled my fancy is the 6.5 Mystic. This one is for 1000yd BR in concept and the design was built around a bullet and its performance at 1000yds/m, a powder, and a case. All wrapped up to get 100% EFFECIENCY, at least load density.

The goal was to develop a 6.5 case that would launch high BC 140/142gr match bullets at 2900fps without using expensive components, excessive throat wear, or more powder then necessary to reduce barrel heat. The rifle would be designed around Williamsport 17lbs rifle rules.

The case had to have 100% or slightly compressed load density, low velocity variations, be consistent and of course accurate. Plus it couldn't use expensive or limited supply brass or dies (you can use 260Rem dies to load).

The reigning 1000yd champ is the 6.5-284. However, the case is not optimized and load density is lower then I would like. Also, I felt that it was consuming more powder then was needed. Most were throttling back to 2900fps to 2950fps anyways so the case was too big.

The 260Rem is the next modern case but is too small to work. Certainly not at sane pressures. I skipped the Mauser since I too wanted a more compact design and brass is not as readily available as my final choice.

After reviewing load charts and using that rule of thumb, I decided that the 308 case would be ideal IF I could make it bigger.

The standard AI's were already tried with limited improvement over the base case. The solution, move that shoulder forward. Far enough to increase capacity but not compromise neck tension and grip. This design maxes out the 308 case in every conceivable dimension.

To my knowledge, no one has done this yet. In essense, you have a 6.5Gibbs short (yes, I had played with the Gibbs before and was very impressed) throated so you have the boatail just below the neck to maximize neck contact and capacity. You would adjust the throat to suit the bullet used.

The shoulder was chosen to be 35deg as I have had success with that before. The parent case is the 308 for obvious reasons. Best part, you would have plenty of neck thickness to turn (working with 243 to 7-08 doesn't leave enough neck thickness) after necking down. Actually, I neck turn to 12 thou while it is a 308, neck down in a 7BR die and fireform. At present, I am using Win brass but have used Fed GM, Norma with similar good results.

The powder was and is H4831SC. I have used it in many cartridges including a few 6.5's and it just rocks. Many are using this in the 6.5-284 with excellent results. It thrives at elevated pressures where these BR cases tend to live. In my prototype 6.5 Mystic, it used 48gr of powder and the bullet seated with just a hint of crunch (a drop tube solves that). The new lot I have is faster so the crunch will be avoided immediately (expect to use around 46/47gr of powder).

Primer is the CCI BR2. The Fed 210M can also work but doesn't hold up to the pressure as well.

Bullet is the 140gr SST moly coated (I like moly for what it is worth). Yep, a hunting bullet but with a BC that exceeds the 142gr MK, at least in the rifles I have shot. Will shoot in the 1's and wonderful at 1000m.

Of course, any match bullet from the Berger to Lapua to MK to Wildcats can be used as long as they are under 142gr in mass. Someday heavier bullets with higher BC's will come and this case is a bit too small.

I built a test rifle and it met my goals to a T. The only thing I couldn't confirm was the muzzle velocity. This rifle only had a 25" barrel. Pressures were most definitely sane, just above the standard 308 levels.

I am in the midst of finishing up the 17lbs 1000yd spec BR rifle using a 30" Gaillard barrel. I am sure it will meet my velocity and accuracy goals.

Recently, there has been several 1000yd BR shooters who have played with the 6.5 WSSM wildcat. Case capacity is identical to the Mystic and results are similar. The only thing I don't like about the WSSM is the limited options for brass. This will be made way worse if Win/Browning pulls the plug on these cartridges. Then there is the need for custom dies.

So yes, I do know how to go from concept, research, and ground up development to a useable and functional wildcat. Costs a few pennies too. It does serve a purpose that is unique and optimises components available today.

As I don't compete in any competitions, the chances of exposures are slim but for those willing to try, it does work. Surprisingly, a shooter from the Scottish F class team might just be trying this one out. Will be interesting to see how it goes.


The 308 is the case on the right.
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Unread 12-04-2005, 10:13 AM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

I've been following this thread and it is very interesting. One comparison I might add is the 7mm STW vs 7mm Dakota.. I have an STW, but comparing writen data, it looks like it takes about 4 grains more powder in the STW to shoot the same bullets at similar velocities. The case capacity is probably 5-7 grains bigger in the STW. That case is long and skinny and the Dakota is shorter and fatter. If nothing else the Dakota gives you more room to seat the bullets out if the magzines are the same length. After looking at the 300 ultra mag I'd have to also say that it is not as much overbore as the 7mm ultra mag, because more gains can be made from basically the same case. Totally different comparison, I know, but the .30 caliber must be a good companion for that long ultra mag case....Not much science in my post, but the 7mm comparison is probably provable...Steve
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Unread 12-04-2005, 12:01 PM
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Re: A question for the ballistic scientists, err, Wildcatters.

308 = 175 SMK @ 2700 FPS * 50 grains powder = 54 FPS per grain of powder.

30-378 = 175 SMK @ 3450 FPS * 100 grains powder = 34.5 FPS per grain of powder.

This illustrates how despite being slower in velocity, the 308 is much more efficient than the high velocity 30-378.

Twice the powder does not yeild twice the velocity. Why? Because bigger cases are less efficient.

Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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