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Possible New Bullet Venture

 
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  #29  
Old 08-07-2013, 11:43 AM
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Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

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Originally Posted by tangodown View Post
What great feedback! I want to address the question of Cost/Price. It's not my intention to get rich at the expense of a few. Pricing will be more than reasonable. I will try to provide Military Discounts to Retired and Active Duty members of our Armed Forces. I'll even do Firefighter and Law Enforcement too. But, I'm not up to that point yet. Right now I'm at the stage known as Due Diligence.

Yes, I think there is room for another bullet maker. I will make bullets that are unlike anything on the market currently. And, I will offer them at a reasonable price. I will start out producing a dozen or so key items where there appears to be demand and go from there.

All Copper - No Problem; Partitions - No Problem; Plastic Nose Tips - no problem; Consistent Metplats - no problem; Bonded Bullets - no problem; Secant Ogives - no problem; Tangent Ogives - no problem ... Combinations of the above - no problem. Am I going to select a price point that allows me to recoup my investment in machines and dies - of course, I am a capitalist - It's my intent to produce excellent bullets at a reasonable price for you guys - the consumer/customer so we both win.

I will also produce bullets in small quantities for selected folks to try the bullets out - and get them "right" before I start cranking out projectiles.

I'm using my own money to fund this venture so I need to get the business model right the first time
Peter,

First off, I am willing to pay a reasonable price for a premium LR hunting bullet and by reasonable I know you need to make a profit. That's why you're in business, or going to be in business. The simplicity or complexity, cost of materials (i.e. copper, tungsten) lathe turnd vs swaged, etc are all going to determine your costs which you have to pass along and I think most will understand that.

The most popular cals in this forum are probably going to be 243, 264, 284, 308 and 338. If 1 was going to start with a dozen of what i thought was going to be the best sellers. It would in the already existing range of weights as that is where the market demand is because that's what common twist rates are available. You can expand from there.

We'll assume that the design of the bullets will give the best possible BC for weight, for LR reach.

Starting with the 243, a 115-120 gr bullet that will stabilize in an 7 twist (not really a common twist). Then something that will stabilize in an 8 twist, like maybe a 105 give or take.

In the 264, a 140-150 give or take to stabilize in an 8 twist and something lighter to stabilize in a 9 twist.

In the 284, there is a demand for something heavier than the 180 hybrid, like a 195 which Berger is desinging, but that would require a non-standard twist of 8 or tighter. Not really sure how much of a demand that is?

In the 308, the 215 and 230 Hybrids are very popular, both stabilizing in 10 twists. Something lighter that stabilizes in an 11 twist and shootable in a 308 or 30-06, like a 200 give or take.

In the 338, the 300 gr bullets that stabilize in a 10 twist seem to be the most popular for the big 338's. Something lighter that stabilizes in an 11 or 12 twist might do well for the more moderate chamberings.

In the 25 and 277 cals, the hottest common chamberings are the 25-06 and 270 WSM followed by the lesser common Weatherby chamberings with the common twist being 10. This limits the weight of high BC bullets. I would start by offering the heaviest high BC bullet for a 10 twist in these cals and develop other offerings in 9, and 8 twists.

Being an old AF guy myself and having spent some time at AMC HQ as the functional manger for a computer flight planning system, I understand the process of stating and defining user requirements. I liked flying a whole lot better

The users are LR hunters.

The requirements are for a LR hunting bullet.

The bullet deign should maximize BC/weight ratio. Currently, the Berger Hybrids do this best.

The bullet should give effective terminal performance at short, mid and long ranges. This is the Long Range Hunting site but that said, the vast majority of game taken by members here is at ranges less than 400 yds. I want the ability to effectively take game at any range out 1000 or more yds. so far there are bullets that are good for LR and others that are better for short and mid ranges.

The bullet should be reliable for any type of shot, i.e., shoulder shot, lung shot, heavy bone, soft tissue.

The bullets should work in common twist barrels for the most part with offerings in custom twist barrels as well.

The bullets should be reasonably priced.

As I previously mentioned, I think the best design would incorporate outside dimensions along the lines of a hybrid type bullet with the internal construction similar to a partition type bullet. Another idea might be to place a tungsten core in the tail and body with a frangible jacketed HP lead core nose. The frangible lead core nose would be good for soft lung tissue while the tungsten or partiton shank and tail for penetrating bone muscle.

Tungsten is an interesting idea. It will boost specific gravity which will increase the BC to weight ratio and also help to maintain SD integrity.

Cheers
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2013, 02:14 PM
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Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

@Mark - Great Feedback and it's Spot On! My last assignment was at the AF Space and Missile System Center (ret '96). Talk about learning about defining requirements! Finally took a two week course on systems engineering and tutoring from the Aerospace Corp guys - At least I learned and the knowledge gained is exceptionally useful...especially in situations like this...

BTW, $60 - $70 for a box of bullets - that's just plain crazy

-- Peter
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  #31  
Old 08-07-2013, 02:23 PM
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Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangodown View Post
What great feedback! I want to address the question of Cost/Price. It's not my intention to get rich at the expense of a few. Pricing will be more than reasonable. I will try to provide Military Discounts to Retired and Active Duty members of our Armed Forces. I'll even do Firefighter and Law Enforcement too. But, I'm not up to that point yet. Right now I'm at the stage known as Due Diligence.

Yes, I think there is room for another bullet maker. I will make bullets that are unlike anything on the market currently. And, I will offer them at a reasonable price. I will start out producing a dozen or so key items where there appears to be demand and go from there.

All Copper - No Problem; Partitions - No Problem; Plastic Nose Tips - no problem; Consistent Metplats - no problem; Bonded Bullets - no problem; Secant Ogives - no problem; Tangent Ogives - no problem ... Combinations of the above - no problem. Am I going to select a price point that allows me to recoup my investment in machines and dies - of course, I am a capitalist - It's my intent to produce excellent bullets at a reasonable price for you guys - the consumer/customer so we both win.

I will also produce bullets in small quantities for selected folks to try the bullets out - and get them "right" before I start cranking out projectiles.

I'm using my own money to fund this venture so I need to get the business model right the first time
Great idea to get feed back first.
As a business owner I understand where you are coming from.
I believe you will struggle to turn a profit.
The market is already pretty well catered for, except for the current panic buying.
To make speciality projectiles takes time, money & plenty of R&D.
Over here the average Kiwi hunter is constantly being accused of being tight & very reluctant to spend $$$ on quality products, I see from this thread we are not alone...
I'm all for products that advance the shooting sports.
Look at how the 375 is currently advancing now we have great projectiles like those offered by Cutting Edge.

The CE 375s cost us approx $4-5 Kiwi each, the GSC are about another $1 when/if you can get them, 91 octane petrol is currently $8.33 Kiwi for a US gallon....

Good luck with your venture
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2013, 02:31 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Posts: 6,376
Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangodown View Post
@Mark - Great Feedback and it's Spot On! My last assignment was at the AF Space and Missile System Center (ret '96). Talk about learning about defining requirements! Finally took a two week course on systems engineering and tutoring from the Aerospace Corp guys - At least I learned and the knowledge gained is exceptionally useful...especially in situations like this...

BTW, $60 - $70 for a box of bullets - that's just plain crazy

-- Peter

I think you're on to something. I'd love to see a competative brand in the bullet game, that's bringing fresh products never before seen, for reasonable prices that everyone can afford.

Like I said before, when you get some .257 130 grainers done, let me know. I'd love to test some in my Accumark.

I think that a longer bearing surface will really help to stabilize these longer heavier bullets, because that is more surface touching the rifling in more places.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
The 284 is to the STW what a tricycle is to a Ninja.
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  #33  
Old 08-07-2013, 02:36 PM
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Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudRunner2005 View Post
....I think that a longer bearing surface will really help to stabilize these longer heavier bullets, because that is more surface touching the rifling in more places.

While effectively skyrocketing pressure.....



t
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  #34  
Old 08-07-2013, 02:41 PM
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Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw6.0 View Post



While effectively skyrocketing pressure.....



t
True...But loading down would help with that, wouldn't it?
__________________
"I'm just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many guns..." - Bob Lee Swagger

"Give me a minute...I'm good. Give me an hour...I'm great. Give me 6 months...And I'm unbeatable." - Col. Hannibal Smith

Ignore everything I say, because I have a reading comprehension and memory problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
The 284 is to the STW what a tricycle is to a Ninja.
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2013, 03:03 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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Re: Possible New Bullet Venture

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudRunner2005 View Post
True...But loading down would help with that, wouldn't it?


I'm not a bullet builder/designer/manufacturer so maybe i'm way off but....
Increased Bearing surface increases pressure & fouling right? If pressure goes up quicker than normal, you're not going to achieve the amount of velocity you can with a bullet of shorter bearing length (all other variables being the same). As long as the velocity loss isn't substantial, ok, I guess. If it is, say, just unreasonably long, you're going to fowl the crap out of your barrel quickly while dropping velocity to a useless state. Bore riders have far less bearing surface that conventionals & work just fine, why increase the contact surface at all?

I understand that velocity isn't everything but it is still quite necessary, at least in my eyes.'



t
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"I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience. "


Last edited by Outlaw6.0; 08-07-2013 at 03:05 PM. Reason: typo
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