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Palma vs Benchrest?

 
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  #1  
Old 05-13-2011, 06:37 PM
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Palma vs Benchrest?

Are Palma rifles/barrels equally as accurate as competitive bench rest rifles at 600+ yds?

Please explain.

Thanks
Richard
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  #2  
Old 05-13-2011, 08:15 PM
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Re: Palma vs Benchrest?

Yes.

They've been tested from machine rests and off the bench. They'll hold at least 4 inches at 600 yards, some even smaller. When Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet was first introduced in competition back in 1991, top long range shooters from around the world all felt the ammo would hold 3 inches or better at 600 yards. A random test of that 1991 ammo put 20 shots in 2.7 inches at 600 yards. More recently, 1000 yard tests with better powders and bullets have 10-shot groups at 5 to 6 inches. The Palma record is 450-39X. Course of fire is two sighters then 15 record shots at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Thirty-nine shots stayed inside the 10-inch X ring. the rest inside the 20-inch 10 ring. That's with aperture sights and a 3.5 pound trigger, slung up prone on the ground, fighting pulse beat, doping the wind for each shot and trying to hold the rifle exactly the same way for each shot.

Compare the above to NBRSA 600 and 1000 yard aggregates. Note agg's are the average of several groups. If one stacks each target of the aggregate atop one another then plots each of all shots fired, the composite group will equal what Palma rifles do and be larger than the aggretate score. Latest benchrest 6-group 1000 yard record LG 3-target Agg was 5.782", while the HG 3-target Agg was 5.779." So all shots probably went into about 7 inches. I've done that well shooting brand new 30 caliber magnum cases from a Winchester.

There's no way a Palma rifle could compete in a benchrest match. Same for a benchrest rifle competing in a Palma match. If you know the details of how each one is held, sighted and fired, you'll understand. While the inheirant accuracy of both are the same, one shoots under one half MOA groups to win, the other shoots two MOA or more and wins.

Last edited by Bart B; 05-14-2011 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 05-14-2011, 10:34 AM
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Re: Palma vs Benchrest?

So, a heavier barrel on a heavier action with meticulously hand loaded ammo makes no difference?

In other words, you could tweak the stock of a Palma rifle to fit the front/rear rest, add a scope, and compete head to head in a benchrest competition?

If that's what you're saying, then you might as well accuse the benchrest guys of insanity.

Furthermore, it seems to go against 90% of the advice in these forums.

thanks
richard
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Old 05-14-2011, 03:15 PM
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Re: Palma vs Benchrest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
So, a heavier barrel on a heavier action with meticulously hand loaded ammo makes no difference?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
In other words, you could tweak the stock of a Palma rifle to fit the front/rear rest, add a scope, and compete head to head in a benchrest competition?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
If that's what you're saying, then you might as well accuse the benchrest guys of insanity.
They're not insane. They just do something different, not better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
Furthermore, it seems to go against 90% of the advice in these forums.
It goes against 99% of what folks all over the world think's needed for best accuracy.

Accuracy's repeatability in the hardware. Doesn't matter how much it moves when the shots fired. As long as it move the same way, excellent repeatability will happen; shots knot up in tiny groups way downrange.

Check this link out for a top level Win. 70 based Palma rifle abilities then compare it to current benchrest long range aggregate scores fired in matches as well as records:

Whidden’s Winning .308 Palma Rifle within AccurateShooter.com

If that's not convincing, I'll post a .41 MOA 20-shot groups fired at 800 yards from my Palma rifle. Its ammo had up to 3 thousandths runout, full length sized cases and the original Sierra Palma bullet seated in WCC60 cases put in a standard SAAMI spec'd chamber with a bit shorter lead for that shorter bullet to touch when chambered. Those cases fit that chamber like a turd in a punch bowl.
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Old 05-15-2011, 02:39 PM
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Re: Palma vs Benchrest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
So, a heavier barrel on a heavier action with meticulously hand loaded ammo makes no difference?

In other words, you could tweak the stock of a Palma rifle to fit the front/rear rest, add a scope, and compete head to head in a benchrest competition?

If that's what you're saying, then you might as well accuse the benchrest guys of insanity.

Furthermore, it seems to go against 90% of the advice in these forums.

thanks
richard
I think it does, I have 3 friends that shoot bench. Dont know particulars rules etc, but 10 shot small groups of 3.83,4.85 and 6 match aggs of 4.8,5.8 this is from guys in my valley. The one friend of mine has about 10 targets with under 3'' 5 shot groups, has a hard time doing it in match for 10 count and w/wind. A guy they shoot against out of state has shot 10 into 2.85.17 lb light gun, the one guy is building a heavy gun 300wsm right now, these guys shoot 6mm dashersat 3050 ' 1000 yard

Last edited by sp6x6; 05-15-2011 at 02:43 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-15-2011, 04:28 PM
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Re: Palma vs Benchrest?

The 1BS HG 10 match agg is 5.9" which is 10 consecutive matches over 10 different days. Not a single one time group.

The IBS LG 10 match agg is 5.3 which is 10 consecutive matches over 10 different days.

That is consistency, not the execptional one time group. If that is measured, then the BR has 10 shot records of 2.2" and 5 shot records of 1.4"

John Whidden is a really unique shooter that has shot some amazing groups prone and is the guru at reading the wind no doubt, and even he says a .6 Palma gun is a "competitive advantage" Palma gun.

.6 in 1k BR will not even routinely win a relay, you must be .4-.5 in daily match conditions.

Now .6 in a prone gun is exceptional shooting no doubt and my hats off to them that can do it. Joh Widden is one who can.

BH

Last edited by BountyHunter; 05-15-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2011, 09:38 AM
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Re: Palma vs Benchrest?

With wind and other conditions being such a huge factor at 600-1k, I think it's apples and oranges to overlay aggregates onto a single target and call it a 20 shot group. For that very reason, most f-class shooters want to shoot their full string in short order before conditions change.

Along the same lines, the actual accuracy of the rifle takes a back seat to reading and compensating for wind.

My curiosity about the comparison of the rifles is from an engineering/design perspective.

If I understood Bart B correctly, he's suggesting long/skinny/whippy vs short/fat/stiff doesn't matter. It all comes down to repeatability.

I can't disagree with the need for repeatability. But, I think fat/stiff is easier to attain repeatability although the degree of benefit may be insignificant due to one's ability to read/compensate for wind.

-- richard
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