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New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

 
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  #1  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:46 AM
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New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

Richard Graves has come up with a 17 cal bullet that may well take the long range performance of this caliber to 2 to 3 times what it is currently limited to.



This pic shows two moly coated 20 gr V-Max bullets on the left and two 45 gr ULD RBBTs on the right.

Richard has ordered a test rifle for this bullet which he will be using as his calling rifle for hunting yotes up north. I will not give the details of this rifle because he kind of put it in my hands and I want to keep it a suprise from him but I can give you some general specs of the rifle.

With a bullet this large you need a pretty significant engine to drive them. We talked several rounds over and even considered developing a 17 Allen Mag but to be honest there are alot of 17 cals out there. We talked about using the PPC and BR cases but decided they were really more then needed with the 17 cal bore even with these bullets and powder fouling which is a real problem with any large 17 cal would be more then wanted with these larger cases for the 17.

In the end, we dropped the 17 Allen Mag idea and I just ordered in a 17-223 Ack Improved reamer with a 30 degree shoulder to aid in smooth feeding and to prevent any possible powder bridging issues.

The latter point will probably not be an issue because the powders we will be testing will more then likely be ball powders such as H-BLC2, H-335 and possibly even H-380 along with W-748 and some of the appropriate Ramshot powders which are of course all ball powders.

Mainly the 30 degree shoulder will be for smooth feeding more then anything. This case will have roughly 30 gr of usible powder capacity so it should be perfect for this heavy 17 cal bullet.

The 45 gr ULD RBBT is right at 1" in length which for a 17 cal bullet is significantly longer then even the 37 gr Berger VLD.

The main problem with the VLD bullets in 17 cal is that they are built on VERY thin jacketed bullets and when driven to high velocity in fast twist barrels, they spin apart rather easily.

This will not be the case with this bullet, it is built on a jacket significantly heavier then the J-4 jacket so blow ups should not be as much of a problem, depending on just how fast we can drive them.

BC predictions will be in the .6 range if the projections are accurate. We tend to agree with those numbers from what we have been seeing with the other ULD RBBTs bullets.

The main issue will be which twist to use. We will be using arguably the best 17 cal barrels in the world from Dan Lilja. Dan offers both a 1-7 and 1-6 twist and we will be trying the 1-7 first with this heavy bullet. With the velocity potential of the 17-223 AI I suspect we will get good results from the 1-7 twist. If not, we have the 1-6 to fall back on but I suspect this will not be needed.

I really have no idea what the velocity potential of this chambering with this bullet weight will be. I am hoping to see at least 3400 fps and possibly +3500 fps depending on barrel length but again, there are no standards here so we will see.

barrels, reamers, stocks and all componants are ordered, now we have to hurry up and wait for them to get here. That is good because I have a "few" customers rifles to get out before this big game season!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Just an update on more things to come!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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Old 07-06-2006, 09:58 AM
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Re: New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

45gn will have problems...

a bud has used some homemade VLD's (by definition) up to 41gn (but he backed off I believe) with some success at 1000yds. This thing has shot scary groups at 300-500yds. He has played around with the meplat as well...he also chose a smaller case.

IIRC, 3400fps was doable with precision...

Your bud Dan Lilja has the barrels you need [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Dan knows my bud well...

What is the deal with the stress cracks in the pic???

Looks like you'll need about a 0.600" freebore with those missiles [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

JB
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Old 07-06-2006, 10:09 AM
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Re: New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

JB,

They are not stress cracks but instead jacket folds. THis is a VERY heavy jacket for a 17 cal bullet and these are also pre production bullets so there is a learning curve building them.

These bullets would not be sold to the public with these folds but they will not make any difference to performance for me to test with so I really could care less.

If you look at most Sierra MK bullets, nearlly all of them have these same jacket folds to some degree or another. In the larger calibers they all have them if you look close enough and they do not effect performance. They are also very common on bullets such as the Hornady 750 gr A-Max 50 cal bullets.

Just something that happens with thick jackets. This is why they do not show up much using VLD bullets on J-4 jackets, not thick enough. Not thick enough to survive high velocity and high RPMs either. Tit for tat I guess. If you want the high speeds and high RPMs you may have to live with some small amount of jacket folds in the ogive of the bullet. Again, I have yet to see this make a difference in consistancy.

Have been told time and again that the weight of bullets we are using will not work. We will see I guess. In all the ones we have played with so far, only one caliber, the 100 and 107 gr 22 cal bullets have not met our velocity goals and accuracy goals and with nearly every release of a new bullet we were told they would not work so we will see.

Never know till they get in the air is what I say and so far our record is not to bad.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:28 PM
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Re: New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

Kirby -- understood...was hoping they were proto's [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You going 6 twist?

JB
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Old 07-06-2006, 03:25 PM
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Re: New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

Kirby

Just because I am too lazy to look for my self I will ask. What is the capacity or velocity difference between a standard 17 Rem case and the 223- 17 AI case?
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Old 07-06-2006, 03:26 PM
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Re: New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

Going to start with a 7 twist and see what happens from there. If we need a 6 we have it available but would prefer a 7 if it will work. We will see.

Basically depends on how much velocity this bullet will handle. Looking at the jacket thickness, I would say quite alot.

We will see.

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #7  
Old 07-06-2006, 04:22 PM
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Re: New 17 cal project, +600 yard reach???..............

Kirby, I have been waiting for about 10 years for someone to develop these, and as usual Richard comes to the fore.

The capacity of the 17/223 AI should be around 30.5 to 31.0 grains unless the shoulder is pushed forward and the neck shortened, when it increases slightly to about 31.5 grains.

I am using a .17/222 Mag improved (40) which has a capacity of about 31.0 grains which achieves about 4,400 fps with the 25 grain bullet, 4,100 with the 30 grain. Although I realised the 1 in 10 twist would not stabilise the 37 grain Berger 37 grain VLD (.858 in) it produced almost 3,800 fps in 24.5 inch barrel.

I think you will be surprised (like me) at which powders you can use, as a 100% load density (30.0 grains) of Winchester 785 (ball) produced maximum pressure and a velocity of about 3,795 fps. A maximum pressure load of 27.0 grains of Hodgdon 414 and Win 760 produced a similar velocity, but only had a load density of 92%.

Win 785 is similar in burning rate to H4831sc, Re22, etc, so with the heavier 45 grain bullet I was envisaging using my remaining stock of Winchester WMR, which I found is about 0.5 - 1.0 grains faster burning than H1000, and about 2 - 2.5 grains slower than Win 785. (Ramshot powders are not available in Oz) A load of 30.0 grains WMR produced 3596 fps with mild pressure with the 37 grain VLD, but may just reach max with the 45 grain bullet.

The powder selection will as always depend on how the barrel is throated and how far the base of the bullet projects down into the case.

I really hope that Richard's expertise will come to the fore, and can devise a way to make the bullets withstand the rpms, as quite a few others have tried and failed. The 45 grain bullet at 3,600 in a 6 twist barrel produces 432,000 rpm.

I desperately hope that his trials will prove a success. Good luck, Brian.
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