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my method

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Old 12-16-2008, 02:56 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 337
Re: my method


As previously advertised and stated, they have been tested in media and on live game as well.

However, the 1000 yard phone book test we will conduct will be to verify the validity one that was done by GG at 100 yards at reduced velocity and spin. If the 100 yard test and the theory of the test conducted in Utah was valid, then the 1000 yard one I will do should indicate the same penetration and expansion characteristics.

Lightvarmint, we should then assume that the HAT bullets that you will be testing will include the phase I 265 HAT with the original Jackets so you can truely compare them to the results GG found ?? Does the phase II 265 use the same jacket ?? Same thickness ?? If there have been changes made in those areas it would be good to know.
Thanks , RHB
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Old 12-16-2008, 03:17 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Potomac River
Posts: 5,057
Re: my method

That is a normal sized doe for Wyoming. It probably weighs maybe 90-100 pounds.

This is a 15 inch buck which is large for Wyoming and weighs perhaps 120 - 140 pounds. I don't really know because we never weigh them.

At 535 yards the exit wound from the 200 gr Wildcat is still very large going from ribcage to rib cage but missing a rib going in.

Here is an exit wound at 910 yards of the 200 grain wildcat hitting a rib going in and angling back into the paunch. The paunch puts up more resistance than lung tissue and the bullet really has something to work with then and gives a six inch exit wound. As I said earlier an antelope is not put together for toughness. It is flimsily constructed with a big hollow lung cage for speed and it rips open very easily.

Just like with artificial substitutes such as paper, gels etc, a person must consider the construction of the animal that the bullet was tested on and what the construction is of the ultimate animal and have some experience with each. That is why I posted the picture of the deer and the antelope with the 240 Wby and 115 Berger. That relationship hold true for the 200 grain Wildcat moving from antelope to deer to elk. Being as both bullets are based upon the J4 jacket and a relatively soft lead core and using high sectional density to achieve extreme penetration and lethality, it is not too surprising that there is some similarity between the bullets. If you give away sectional density you have to compensate with something and I used to shoot Nosler partitions a lot because they compensate with the partition controlling weight loss and ultimately momentum.
The Smokin Fur Rifle Club
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Old 12-16-2008, 04:47 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 47
Re: my method

My taxidermist is going to hate those Wildcat bullets....or any bullet that punches a 6" hole in the cape.
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:27 PM
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Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
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Re: my method

I have watched this post as well as the others on the testing of the HAT bullets but have added very little to the posts really because I have no dog in the fight but I have seen a couple things that bothered me.

1. In the comparisions I have read between the HAT and SMK, I beleive most of the 338 comparisions were between the 265 HAT and 300 gr SMK. I have the 265 gr HAT in shop. I assume they are Gen I bullets. THey are very slightly longer then the 300 gr SMK. While BC may be slightly higher, it is not going to be dramatically higher simply because two bullets that have similiar bullet designs will have similiar BC values.

Now before some ballistic expert gets all tied up, I realize ogive and meplat will effect BC but not DRAMATICALLY for same length bullets that both have relatively efficent bullet designs, ballistically.

My question is, in the testing I have seen, why are the 265 gr HAT bullets loaded to the same velocity as the 300 gr SMK????? THey should be able to be driven to 100-150 fps faster EASILY.

I tested some prototype aluminum tipped bullets that were 265 gr a couple years ago in my 338 AX and 338 AM. In the 338 AX, I could drive them to 3100 fps compared to the 300 gr SMK which I could hit 2950 fps with max loads.

In the 338 AM, the 300 gr SMK could be driven to 3420 fps with decent case life. THe prototype 265 gr bullet hit 3550 fps easily.

Why are the HAT bullets limited to the same velocity as the 300 gr SMK, this should not be. If your going to put an aluminum tipped on a long range bullet, why settle for the same length bullet as the current standard. Magazine limits, possibly but single shot is generally accepted for long range hunting. Baring surface issues, possibly but with proper design, that is not a problem.

The prototype 265 gr AT RBBTs I tested has identical baring surface to the 300 gr SMK but were roughly 0.220" longer then the SMK. Surpisingly, the bullet drop derived BC was 0.980 at 3000 fps and 0.910 at 3550 fps. Why the drop in BC with the added velocity, not sure but those are the numbers I had to use to predict bullet drop over 2000 yards.

My belief, the HAT bullets use very heavy jackets instead of using a tapered jacket which is really needed for an aluminum tipped bullet to be a successful big game bullet. The bullets I tested were tapered jacketed bullets, much thinner at the ogive and DRAMATICALLY thicker in the case body of the bullet which allowed excellent bullet expansion at long range but at close range where the wedge effect of the aluminum tip would be dramatic trying to turn that bullet inside out, the dramatically heavier jacket in the body of the bullet would control and survive these impact strains.

In my opinion, if a medium to large caliber bullet with a large aluminum tip does not have a properly designed tapered jacket, you will not get the good all around results we are looking for in a big game hunting bullet.

2. Bullet drop has been overly focused on here. Drop is easy to figure and we can easily accurately predict bullet drop. So to me, BC is not a big deal as far as bullet drop. For wind drift, certainly high BC is what we want but as mentioned, if the bullet does not perform on game, whats the point. Thats why the SMK works very well most of the time. It expands well and its got a high enough sectional density to penetrate most big game at most distances very well, even at higher velocity impacts.

3. Cost. I would never tell anyone what to charge, and I will say that if the product is quality, many will be willing to pay more for a quality product but the cost of these bullets seem very high to me personally. The prototype bullets I was testing were to be roughly 2/3 the price of the HAT bullets and we were thinking this would be very high for customers to swallow.

The HAT bullets are siginifcantly more spendy then even the VLD solid design bullets which have been known to be the most expensive bullets out there on average. With brass and lead costs increasing this may change and may already have changed but I still wonder what the reasoning is for the extreme cost of these bullets, especially when I Can get 750 gr A-Max 50 cal bullet for only slightly more per bullet then these HAT bullets.

I understand custom bullet costs, but these are pretty high for even custom bullets and I personally believe that this will hurt their success more then anything else.

4. I have never seen a product that has been reported on so widely by really only one user trying to prove the performance of these bullets since I have gotten into this business.

I can not fault that because I pushed my wildcats, rifles and the Wildcat bullets very hard and still do when I have time. That said, after a bit of time, the results started pouring in on the wildcat bullets performance not only ballistically but also terminally. Instead of one voice pushing bullets, there were dozens or more.

5. Finally, we are comparing bullet holes in pronghorns and I am not sure why. Impact wounds and exit wounds are a very poor way to figure out bullet performance. THe reason, pronghorns have extremely thin hides and they are small structured animals. I have killed dozens of pronghorns with rifles and handguns chambered in rounds varying from the 223 Rem up to the 338 Allen Magnum.

A 22-250 with a 50 to 60 gr bullet loaded to 3500-3600 fps will leave an exit wound as large or larger then even my huge 338 Allen Magnum.

Just this year my father took a very nice pronghorn at 300 yards with a 25-284 I made for him. He is shooting the 100 gr Bonded Core Wildcat HP at 3300 fps. The exit holes were as large or larger then the ones posted already on this topic.

Several things come into play when dealing with exit wounds.
- Proximaty of bone impacts to the hide going in or going out
- The thickness and elasiticty of the hide
- The exit velocity of the projectile
- The diameter of the projectile
- The fragmentation of the projectile on exit(how many pieces)
- Resistance of the game animal to that bullet

I have shot pronghorns with a rifle/load combo that resulted in 6-7" exit wounds but when that same load was used on whitetail deer that weighed nearly 3 times as much, the exit wound was roughly 1" in diameter.

I have shot pronghorns with my 7mm AM with 160 gr Accubond at 3450 fps which opened them up like they had been hit by an atom bomb. I have taken whitetail with that same bullet with again, conventional 1 to 1.5" exit wounds. I just took a bull moose this fall at 150-250 yards for three shots and all exit wounds were roughly 1" in diameter.

If your looking at the exit wounds to compare effectiveness on big game, you would say the 7mm AM is effective on pronghorns, marginally on whitetails and probably not very effective on moose. That could hardly be true.

Simply put, any bullet will open up a pronghorn in certain situations. I do not believe this is a fair comparision even if you have a known standard for comparision because virturally all high velocity bullets can cause severe exit wounds on pronghorns.

Just my opinions.

I would like to see the HAT bullets expand more consistantly at all velocities. I would also like to see a higher BC if I am going to pay this much for bullets and to that point, I would like to see them more cost effective but that is not my call. I am sure many say my rifles are over priced but most have told me that they are underpriced in comparision to many other top shops.

Anyway, nuff said on my end.
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

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Old 12-16-2008, 06:51 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MS
Posts: 1,652
Re: my method


The 265 hats that I have are running 3400 fps in the rifle you built me, and the BC based upon my testing out to 1400 is .91. As far as accuracy is concerned they are at least as accurate, if not more so, than the 300SMK. This is a light load IMO 146gr of H50BMG and primer pockets never seem to loosen.

(BTW that gun you built me is really kick butt)

You are right these bullets are expensive. I was so excited by your posts on the 265 wildcats that I was willing to pay it. I will continue to pay it if the perform on game. It isnt like I shoot this gun enough to break the bank.
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:51 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Potomac River
Posts: 5,057
Re: my method

Finally, we are comparing bullet holes in pronghorns and I am not sure why.
Kirby, the reason I mentioned it in the first post was as a courtesy to Eddie. He has some choice in the "exotic" he shoots. If he selects some fragile little African antelope to shoot, then it will be not much of a test of the bullet and most of us will not know much about how to interpret the pictures. I would rather mention it before he shoots than whine and complain afterwards. Being as I had plenty of pictures to prove my point, I posted them rather than just run my mouth. If he shoots a garden variety hog then many of us know something about bullet performance on a hog. They are pretty tough and will make a bullet work hard to do its job

The second post was because LV asked how much the antelope weighed. I posted the pictures to demonstrate that antelope weight has almost nothing to do with exit holes and that range has almost nothing to do with exit holes on an antelope.

Your conclusion and my conclusion are the same- Some Animals Are Not Good Test Subjects For Some Bullets. Blowing an eight inch hole through some Thompsons gazelle is not IMHO much of a test for a high velocity 338 bullet or even a slow velocity one for that matter. Plus the cape is going to have a really big hole in it.

Just to say it again. My first post was just courtesy to Eddie to remind him of what he already knows but may not have thought about. In the end it is his money and his choices and his trip.
The Smokin Fur Rifle Club
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Old 12-17-2008, 10:33 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MS
Posts: 1,652
Re: my method

Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post
Just to say it again. My first post was just courtesy to Eddie to remind him of what he already knows but may not have thought about. In the end it is his money and his choices and his trip.
Never assume I know anything as you may be disapointed.

I suspect whitetail and axis does will be the primary targets. It would be cool if they had something with some real mass to it, but I do not think that is the case. A big mouflan may be pretty dense? They do have a rep for being tough.

BTW been meaning to ask if Quantico is still shooting? I am going to be in the area for New Years hunting and doing some work training for at least a week. When is the next match?
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.
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