Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics


Reply

My Brain hurts....

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-19-2010, 08:32 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
My Brain hurts....

Ok, gang, I've got a nasty case of information overload going on, and I'm hoping that a little intervention on your part will help me sort a lot of it out, help me make sense of it, and figure out how I can apply it to my needs.

1) Ladder testing.
I grasp the concept that by stepping the charge of a given powder/primer/case/bullet combination helps identify the "sweet spot" load.
I don't understand how a chrony helps though.

2) Barrel Break in...
This gets tons of input, and the suggestions are as varied as the people that post them.
My situation is that I have a brand new rifle, factory heavy barrel, chambered in 308 WIN. It's a Rem 700 SPS Varmint.
The rifle has been test fired at the factory, but I've never put a round through it yet. Only bought it a couple days ago...
My question is, given my specific situation, what would you recommend for the procedure of breaking that barrel in to maximize accuracy?

3) Precision Dies...
I've used all major manufacturer's dies for reloading a variety of calibers, but have never been in a situation where I had a rifle that was more proficient than I am on the range. Until Now.
I am thinking that this rifle (700SPS) will outshoot me, but I digress..
When it comes to dies, what do you have the best success with?

4) Brass...
I understand trimming to length, but I don't understand the concepts and principles behind neck trimming.
I would think that it would weaken the brass, and reduce it's useful life.
Please enlighten me!

5) Throat gauging...
I understand that there's a little space between the bullet and the start of the rifling, but I don't understand what's appropriate to maximize accuracy.

6) Powders
Having been reloading a while, I understand that different powders have different burn rates. Is there any trick to determining which powders will work best in a given firearm?

7) Can I get some fries with all that?
Thanks in advance!
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:56 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Carrollton, Ohio
Posts: 589
Re: My Brain hurts....

Quote:
I don't understand how a chrony helps though.
If you are ladder testing at 200 yards, and plan to shoot 600 yards or more; the chronograph is going to give you data which may translate to vertical stringing at those extended ranges. You'll want to get the extreme spread to the minimum.


Quote:
My question is, given my specific situation, what would you recommend for the procedure of breaking that barrel in to maximize accuracy?
BREAK-IN & CLEANING

You break-in the barrel to prolong the accuracy the rifle already has, without needing to clean; it doesn't make the rifle more accurate.


Quote:
the concepts and principles behind neck trimming.
You're talking about neck "turning." Bench-rest rifles shooters turn the necks to fit their perfect, tight chambers. Your rifle will not gain accuracy form it.
"Trimming" is to trim your case to the proper length.

Quote:
5) Throat gauging...
That is rifle/load specific, you'll find-out when you find-out.

Quote:
Is there any trick to determining which powders will work best in a given firearm?
I go by the book/books. Reloading manuals are our friends.
__________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-- Samuel Adams
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-20-2010, 01:04 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Montana Plains
Posts: 289
Re: My Brain hurts....

Dave,

Regarding powders, I usually get the best results from powders that fill the case to over 90% capacity. If a powder loads results in much less than 90% capacity, flashover will cause inconsistency and possible detonation if a particularly light load sneaks through your reloading process.

I weigh bullets and brass to tight tolerances of plus or minus half a grain. As a final check I weigh all reloaded cartridges. If there is a reloaded cartridge lighter or heavier minus or plus a grain of center, that is a no-go reload, as only a powder load screwup could make it vary by more than a grain.

I use military ball surplus for break-in. Make sure it's good safe stuff. Avoid anything from a hot climate (Brazil, Israel ,Egypt, etc.). FNM has been very, very good for me. Some of my stuff is new, never issued, bought by the case. 200-500 rounds is a good break-in amount for standard velocity cartridges like a .308 Win.....because expected barrel lifespan is 20,000 rounds and that amount for break-in is only 1% to 2.5% of total barrel lifespan.

A properly broken-in (smoothed out and polished) barrel IS more accurate since fouling is reduced and fouling reduces accuracy. In the case of a .22LR shooting lead ammo, shooting it will almost never break-in the barrel. You have to keep the lead cleaned out and polish the bore with something like Remington 40-X bore cleaner.

Also, don't overdo it when cleaning out carbon, You want carbon in the pits of the bore, as copper can't stick to carbon. A certain amount of carbon makes your barrel smoother and resistant to copper fouling. M-Pro-7 takes out excess carbon with almost no work at all, while having almost no smell and being nontoxic. Use M-Pro 7 lube in the bore when the gun is sitting unused, and pull a bore snake through it before shooting. Together, the cleaner and lube makes it much harder for fouling to get a firm hold on the metal. I never use a chemical copper solvent, as it is unnecessary when using M-Pro 7 properly.

Phil
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:35 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
Re: My Brain hurts....

Quote:
Originally Posted by justgoto View Post
If you are ladder testing at 200 yards, and plan to shoot 600 yards or more; the chronograph is going to give you data which may translate to vertical stringing at those extended ranges. You'll want to get the extreme spread to the minimum.
Ok, I've heard the term vertical stringing, but I don't understand what it means or what I am looking for to identify it.

On throat gauging, is there a basic rule of thumb I can start with?
I'll be doing my initial detail cleaning and sighting in tomorrow, using ammunition that's not quite world class IMHO, but it's a good start. Gander has Remington PSP ammo on sale for $8/box of 20. I can't buy brass for that price, let alone factory ammo. I'm on that like ticks on a dog!

I heard someone mention fire lapping the barrel today. From what I have read, it's using lapping compound on the bullet to essentially polish the bore.
Is there any value to this concept?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-21-2010, 12:24 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NW Mt.
Posts: 600
Re: My Brain hurts....

Don't fire lap your barrel , not now and hopefully not ever. It's for rough barrels that
don't shoot or clean well and is used as a last resort by most. Your barrel is good for
maybe 4000 rounds, so 200 to 500 to break it in is a bunch. Bartlein Barrels website
has a great article on break in that agrees closely with Krieger's.
I like forster dies.
Until you've read and reloaded enough to understand the concept of seating the bullet
near the lands don't worry about throat gauging. If you are lucky your gun will shoot a
variety of loads well and you won't ever have to deal with it. Certain bullets seem to
be temperamental as to how far of a jump they like to the lands.
Neck turning is another facet of reloading best left for the future. One of those things
you may never do. It makes the neck brass the same thickness which makes the tension
on the bullet more consistent. It will make more accurate ammo but your time will be
better spent shooting and working up loads that shoot well with some forgiveness in
the process.
There are known loads that shoot well in many popular rifles. Federal Gold Medal Match
308 shoots well in most 308 rifles as a for instance. Google your rifle model and loads
for it.
Fries are bad for your heart, caffeine is bad for your groups, laying off the coke and
coffee can do more for your shooting than hours of case prep at the reloading bench.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-21-2010, 01:43 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,597
Re: My Brain hurts....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loner View Post
Don't fire lap your barrel , not now and hopefully not ever. It's for rough barrels that
don't shoot or clean well and is used as a last resort by most. Your barrel is good for
maybe 4000 rounds, so 200 to 500 to break it in is a bunch. Bartlein Barrels website
has a great article on break in that agrees closely with Krieger's.
I like forster dies.
Until you've read and reloaded enough to understand the concept of seating the bullet
near the lands don't worry about throat gauging. If you are lucky your gun will shoot a
variety of loads well and you won't ever have to deal with it. Certain bullets seem to
be temperamental as to how far of a jump they like to the lands.
Neck turning is another facet of reloading best left for the future. One of those things
you may never do. It makes the neck brass the same thickness which makes the tension
on the bullet more consistent. It will make more accurate ammo but your time will be
better spent shooting and working up loads that shoot well with some forgiveness in
the process.
There are known loads that shoot well in many popular rifles. Federal Gold Medal Match
308 shoots well in most 308 rifles as a for instance. Google your rifle model and loads
for it.
Fries are bad for your heart, caffeine is bad for your groups, laying off the coke and
coffee can do more for your shooting than hours of case prep at the reloading bench.
one thing you can do with a factory barrel is to hand lap the tight spots. Lay a strip of masking tape ontop of the barrel, and then mark all the tight spots in the barrel (do leave the one at the muzzel alone!). Nothing can be done to the loose spots, so don't loose any sleep there. Now you'll need a very ridgid cleaning rod (I like Proshot), and a VERY tight patch soaked in 800 grit lapping compound. In the tight spots, stroke the patch five to eight times (just in that area). Now clean the barrel, and run a clean patch with a very light coating of oil on it to see how it feels. You may have to do this a couple times (I've had to do a couple Remington barrels a half dozen times in the past). You want the muzzel to be tighter than the rest of the barrel, so you pretty much are stuck with that end result.

Bill Calfee has written several papers on how to select barrels and lap them, and everyone of them is worth the read. Funny thing is that 50% of the gunsmiths laughed at him, but none of them have built winning international target rifles on a regular basis. I highly recommend reading his book! As it's a wealth of information on everything from barrels to triggers. Bill is mostly known for his rimfire rifles, but he does do a center fire on occassion, and readilly shares all his data banks with the masses.
gary
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-21-2010, 02:40 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SW Montana
Posts: 4,494
Re: My Brain hurts....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieHitman View Post
Ok, gang, I've got a nasty case of information overload going on, and I'm hoping that a little intervention on your part will help me sort a lot of it out, help me make sense of it, and figure out how I can apply it to my needs.

1) Ladder testing.
I grasp the concept that by stepping the charge of a given powder/primer/case/bullet combination helps identify the "sweet spot" load.
I don't understand how a chrony helps though.

If you just shoot a ladder without the crony your missing some data that you'll need later so I shoot them over the crony then I can match numbers up and make a decision with the most complete data. The last one we did the crony was invaluable because we could see that at one powder level the velocity went way up from what it had been trending but it shot well, we chose the load right before this velocity spike so we got a good load from the ladder and was able to pin point the peak velocity node as well.

2) Barrel Break in...
This gets tons of input, and the suggestions are as varied as the people that post them.
My situation is that I have a brand new rifle, factory heavy barrel, chambered in 308 WIN. It's a Rem 700 SPS Varmint.
The rifle has been test fired at the factory, but I've never put a round through it yet. Only bought it a couple days ago...
My question is, given my specific situation, what would you recommend for the procedure of breaking that barrel in to maximize accuracy?

Opinions vary so widely, I just shoot and clean every shot for a few then go to every three shots. I don't have a hard opinion on it I just do a little to make me feel good and fallow the manufacture instructions so if we have an issue it is documented that I did the suggested break in.

3) Precision Dies...
I've used all major manufacturer's dies for reloading a variety of calibers, but have never been in a situation where I had a rifle that was more proficient than I am on the range. Until Now.
I am thinking that this rifle (700SPS) will outshoot me, but I digress..
When it comes to dies, what do you have the best success with?

I've started using Redding bushing dies and I really like them, really lets you have the control you need to take it to the next level.

4) Brass...
I understand trimming to length, but I don't understand the concepts and principles behind neck trimming.
I would think that it would weaken the brass, and reduce it's useful life.
Please enlighten me!

Others can give you better advice than me but mainly it's to clean up inconstant thickness in the case neck to help neck tension and bullet run out. I've started just buying the best brass I can and sort out the few bad ones and go with that and avoid neck trimming.

5) Throat gauging...
I understand that there's a little space between the bullet and the start of the rifling, but I don't understand what's appropriate to maximize accuracy.

You just have to tune the seating depth for the bullet to maximize the accuracy with that bullet, generally with hunting loads you stay out of the lands so you don't stick a bullet when you remove a loaded round.

6) Powders
Having been reloading a while, I understand that different powders have different burn rates. Is there any trick to determining which powders will work best in a given firearm?

I use the load manuals to give me a good burn rate range to start in then I go from there, I usually like a case full of slowww stuff!

7) Can I get some fries with all that?

Extra crispy or original
Thanks in advance!
Dave
Fire lapping is, IMO, a last case ditch effort to get some usable accuracy out of a factory barrel till you can get a good one installed. Some have used it with good results but it is for after you know it need help.
Good luck and welcome to LRH!!
__________________
High Fence, Low Fence, Stuck in the Fence, if I can Tag it and Eat it, it's Hunting!

"Pain is weakness leaving your body"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: My Brain hurts....
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brain Teaser for someone. 300WSMMAD Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics 1 04-17-2011 03:08 AM
Ricochet - Sometimes it hurts. orkan General Discussion 15 07-02-2010 07:00 AM
Wind Calculations Brain Teaser Bull45cal. Long Range Hunting & Shooting 11 06-09-2009 01:19 AM
This is a chucks brain on 300g SMK Kevin Cram Varmint Hunting 3 05-27-2008 01:01 PM
HELP! Brain Melting... djcompto The Basics, Starting Out 5 02-16-2005 04:32 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC