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moa Question

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Unread 12-03-2001, 12:13 AM
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: moa Question

Hello Gwahir

I agree with your statement.

Even target shooters take sighter shoots to adjust accordingly.Why would a LR hunter not take one or two also and let his spotter with bigeyes make the bullet impact call?

At the ranges we shoot, you don't have time to try figure Yaw, earth rotation and such.
A good drop chart with the elevation, temperature, velocity and other pertinent information along with a good hunting partner with excellent optics is what is needed in longrange hunting.

You will NEVER do it alone if you can't see the hits in excess of 1000 yards. Just too many variables out there to contend with.

Have the best Rangefinder you can afford, apply that to your pre run ballistics program that you have checked out before the season began, and count on your spotter to make the call. Just like a sniper "team" does it.

Darryl Cassel
Darryl Cassel
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Unread 12-03-2001, 05:54 AM
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Re: moa Question


For 99% of folks, myself included, all the things OTHER than verification of a good drop chart is not essential or warranted. (That statement will get the Purist's excited!)

For a target the size of a coyote, I'd have a good (verified) drop chart that included some temperature variations.

Use a chonograph and get an accurate velocity for your load. Get/use a good Ballistics program and get a ballistic printout based on your velocity, bullet BC, terrain altitude and normal temperature and humidity (these are listed in rough order of importance, most to least). Get the printout in 50 yard increments at a minimum, you can extrapolate to a smaller amount from that. Get to an area where you can set up some targets to your desired maximum range, do this on a calm day with the temperature range you've selected. ZERO THE RIFLE AT 100 YARDS..... NOW, estimate the wind speed and apply windage correction (with your rifle I'd start at .5 MOA for every 100 yards for a 10mph full value wind) use the drop chart and put the 200 yard data on the scope and fire on the 200 yard target, record the horizontal and vertical distance from your point of aim and the center of the shot group for that target. (Fire your shots when the wind conditions match the conditions of the previous shot.)
Repeat the above procedure until you're completely frustrated [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] or you've completed the drop chart verification to your maximum range.
The MORE important data here is the vertical displacement information of your groups. Adjust your drop chart by using the theoretical chart and the actual data from your verification, you should now have a good drop chart for that rifle and load.
The wind data is good in that you'll have an idea of future wind calls and adjusting for the wind. If it get's too confusing forget about adjusting for the wind and concentrate only on the drop data. In a perfect world, AND FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS EXERCISE, all horizontal displacement is wind if you have a good 100 yard zero.

Don't worry about the Earth's rotation, spin drift, or rain. Concentrate on marksmanship fundamentals, drop charts, wind and shooting on angles.

MOST animals don't know what a gun is, they don't recognize the report of a rifle as danger, especially if it's a good distance away. Animals that are routinely shot AT learn some danger signs, the sight of a person is about the #1 danger sign, stay out of sight. Some learn that ANYTHING out of the ordinary is a signal to vacate the area, this includes loud noises. But they sometimes also learn what is considered a safe distance, shooting noises at 800 yards is probably not something they have learned to associate with danger.
I'd try the sighter shot as many folks here use, the coyotes may not feel threatened and you may even be able to entice them into coming closer. After a while I'd say that for ranges of 600 to 800 yards you'll be able to skip the sighter and get first round hits but you'll need to have good charts and be observant.
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Unread 12-03-2001, 09:44 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 15
Re: moa Question

I heard a wonderful story from a friend about a sighter shot. He had done this a lot with elk, and they stood well at 1k or so. Anyway, in this case he saw four black bear in the same tree at about 800 yds and laid in a sighter 'far enough' off to the side. All four bear turned loose of the tree at exactly the split second the bullet arrived, and they were doing 40 mph before they hit the ground!! No, I don't suppose old Yote would stand well for such activities. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Unread 12-03-2001, 11:09 AM
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Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: moa Question


We killed bear with the sighter shot method and the bear did not run at all. This one was at 750 yards. There was others but, the yardage on this one was close to the one in the story you mentioned.

The point is you must be far enough off with your sighter round for animals like the bear and the Coyote.
What looks like 100 yards off from a 1000 yards away may not be.

The sighter round is mainly for the windage adjustment if you have shot your rifle enough and know the clicks at the various ranges. Again an accurate drop chart is a must.

As mentioned before, the sound is usually not a factor at longrange especially with deer and elk. Obviously if your first shot goes in close to or below the animal (I'm still talking about deer and elk), he will normally run about 25 to 50 yards, stop and look back at what that impact noise was. Sometimes they will walk up and stick their nose in the impact hole. They are not alarmed at all (In most cases).

The bear and cotote are a bit more alarmed at CLOSE noise. Make your sighter round at least 100 yards away (or further) and you should have no problems.

Hope that helped a bit.

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
Darryl Cassel
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Unread 12-03-2001, 08:07 PM
Posts: n/a
Re: moa Question

thanks dave gwahir & darrel
you guys are top notch
well what kind of wind meters are you all

as far as yotes i can call then almost into my lap some days
some days they dont respond
but i think it would be exciting if i could
have the tools & capability to do the job out that far

the 408 cheyenne tac seems to be quite the shooter are there any info on chamber dims.
load development or any thing to the general public

thanks steve
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Unread 01-05-2002, 11:48 AM
308 308 is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Fl
Posts: 90
Re: moa Question

Steve Web, I don't think that the Leupolds are calibrated in moa per say. From the info I've found and limited testing with mine and from reading Dan Lilja's articles about longrange hunting I'm pretty sure all of the vari x III's are .250 per click.
I think the only Leupolds that are actually pure moa or .262 per click are the 30mm MK 4 scopes. I'm sure some of these folks here can say which is correct. 308
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