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Long Range thick skin bullets

 
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  #267  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:09 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post

Even though you apparently believe you've been a neutral, helpful participant in responding to stenger and this Thread he initiated, perhaps you'll be able to recognize the effect of your Posts on stenger; how they've been interpreted and their effect, by taking a look-see at stenger's direct response to you:



So no matter how intently you've concluded that your Posts in this Thread have been void of personal attack and accusation, the member you've directed your comments to has just clearly communicated to you, his own interpretation of them.
Paul,

I would also suggest the Kirby, Broz and others have an equal "right" to express their doubts as to the accuracy of someone's claims based on lack of evidence or seemly contradicting evidence, and by doing so aren't necessarily engaging in a personal attack. I found the 2nd story about the deer a little odd myself.
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  #268  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:10 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
Fifty Driver
I think you should stick to building rifles instead of acusing me of making up a story.

Last words on this subject! Shoot at your own risk when using Bergers on large or dangerous game. I don't want to see anyone get hurt.

Peace
Good luck this season.
Did not say you made up the story, just wondered why you left out the information of the first event you witnessed until so late in the game. I would have opened with that one to give your argument more footing. Just seemed strange to me that you brought up the story this late in the debate. IF you have information and data to support your stance on a subject, lay it out on the table from the start and it just give you better footing to stand on in a debate. That is my point.
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  #269  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:15 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

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Originally Posted by RTK View Post
I think a lot of people are looking for the highest BC bullet to all exclusion when shooting game at long or short distances and becoming blinded to what is needed..

Accuracy/shot placement has always been at the top of my list but bullet selection has to be right up there too.
I don't mind dialing in a couple more moa at distance with a better constructed bullet for my needs as long as it shoots as well but has a lower BC.
I would have to agree with your comments. Many of us get hung up on high BC values more then anything else and it can get us into trouble. I admit I have done it before as well. That said, when I set up my lightweight rifles that will be used from 0 to 1/2 mile ranges, I generally use an Accubond bullet simply because I know they will get the job done on closer ranges and they will also work at longer ranges as well.

For my heavy rifles that are used as dedicated long range rifles, those being used at 1/2 mile and out, I will most often use the high BC match bullets from Berger and Sierra. generally I have both rifles with me most of the time just in case I run into a situation where one of the rifles may not be the correct application for that weapon systems. For those times when its not practical to have two rifles (walking or stalking), I take the accubond loaded rifle every time and am perfectly fine to give up the ranges much past 1/2 mile in favor of knowing the load I am using WILL WORK on closer range impacts if something like that happens.

Again, I would agree, we have gotten pretty hung up on high BC bullets and at times it can bite us in the rear. I am including myself here so not pointing any fingers at anyone.
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  #270  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:30 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Paul,
I would also suggest the Kirby, Broz and others have an equal "right" to express their doubts as to the accuracy of someone's claims based on lack of evidence or seemly contradicting evidence, and by doing so aren't necessarily engaging in a personal attack. I found the 2nd story about the deer a little odd myself.
Well I left the thread so the two or 3 that felt I was not being fair could debate it further. However Paul insists on laying yet another personal attack in my direction by naming me in yet another post in an attempt to insult my integrity, again.

So Mark, you are correct. What this thread has turned into is a move to silence members that do not agree. If we don't agree with Paul he will attack and degrade in an effort to silence the opposition with his long posts and smoke screen.

This reminds me a lot of the liberal media. I am suppose to give up my 1st amendment rights if they do not fall in line with their leftish way of mind. Which, frankly is this.

It is always someone else's fault. I am never the cause of the problem. If the bullet of choice did not work. IT HAS TO BE THE BULLET, or MANUFACTURER'S FAULT, or THE GUYS THAT USE THEM WITH SUCCESS and tell about it no matter how much they support their experiences.

"Never allow a tragedy to go to waste." Yet construe it to degrade the ones you do not agree with no matter how much they support their claims. How dare they voice their opinion. Lets degrade them publically.

Just like the media did Sarah Palin . Does all this look familiar?

Jeff
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  #271  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:55 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

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Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
My interest in this Thread should be clear to anyone that's read my posts in the context of those member's posts and statements I've responded to. If it's not clear from my posts, it should be clear from other member's posts that have joined in the defense of stenger's right to express his experience and opinion on the performance of a hunting bullet. I have to presume you don't understand, otherwise there shouldn't be any purpose for questioning why "I'm so heated at defending him". My first response to your characterization me being heated at defending him, would be to inform you that I'm defending his right to share an experience about a bullet's performance with the membership, and his opinion about that performance. If your claim is that I'm defending him in any other sense, then you'll have to describe your claim with some further clarity. I have no problem at all with him posting his feelings about the performance of this bullet in this situation. I have not attacked him personally from day one. Only thing I have ever said is that this should not have been a surprise. I am actually agreeing with him and what he has seen and somehow HE and YOU are turning it into me attacking him. I have said all along this was a bad bullet selection for the job at hand. It was, it is and I have to believe that Stenger believes the EXACT SAME THING...... That is why I am so amazed that the conversation is still going on with both sides basically just attacking each other just to do it it seems.

Again, he has every right to share any experience he has had with any bullet or rifle or anything else related to the topic. Do I not have the same right to say, I would not have expected anything different then what you witnessed using this bullet in the situation that it was used in?????

All in all, I am totally agreeing with him, what he has reported and witnessed. My only comment against him was that it was poor decision to use this bullet in the first place and that's been my only point. I am not supporting berger, I am not supporting Sterger, I am simply saying that in this case, the wrong bullet was chosen for the job at hand. Your reply will be, there was not enough information out there for him to make a good decision or that there was misleading information, well, right in the description of the berger hunting bullets it says that you should expect 85% weight loss on impact........ Moose bullet, don't think so.

Add to that, all it would have taken was some research before hand, a simple question posted on LRH as I have mentioned before would have given him more information then he could have ever read and likely would have clearly shown that this was not the best choice of bullet for the job he was wanting to do. Anyone that would have recommended this bullet, I would have also vocally disagreed with them as well.

You expressed curiosity of my involvement, and also now criticized my prolonged involvement in this Thread. In the effort to satisfy your curiosity, I respond to you now. There's a prolonged established history of transforming any member's post describing and sharing a poor experience with a Berger bullet into a negative critique of that member, rather than a neutral discussion of the bullet performance experienced. The consequence of shifting the focus of the discussion from the bullet performance experience to interrogation and criticism of the member that posted the information leads to either naturally defensive responses from the member, or more commonly the stifling and silencing of that member. And it's as simple as that.

Again, I do not see your point here, at least with my replies. I have done nothing but say I am not surprised by his reports and witnessed events. He has seen the results, he had gotten a LOAD of replies with good recommendations and yet it seems the only point for this thread is to keep saying how berger failed the hunter of topic. Again, the only failure was the decision on which bullet to use. I like berger bullets, I like Nolser bullets, I like barnes bullets, I like Sierra bullets and I use them all on big game. There are some situations I feel some of these bullets are very poor choices. For example, using a 200 gr Barnes TSX out of a large 30 cal magnum for use on pronghorn at long range, or loading a 300 gr berger or SMK to 3400 fps in my 338 AM and taking a shot at a bull elk quartering hard away at 50 yards. Now these are two extremes but they serve to show my point. Every bullet has its strengths and weaknesses. Now days its easy to learn what these are when what are the best applications for each bullet design and type. That has always been my point, research, ask around, educate yourself before getting into a situation like this. I have no doubt that everyone involved in the moose hunt had total confidence in this combination until they got into the situation at hand. Had they asked here on LRH, this bad situation could have likely been avoided 100%. I am not defending berger bullets, there are applications I am very vocal about where they should not be used and that is the case with most bullets, there are certain applications where a specialty bullet is not the best choice.

I've countered those members that elected to shift the discussion from bullet performance, to a negative critique of the stenger. I had no doubts about the direction this thread would turn beginning with my first popcorn post. Broz likes the popcorn when he controlling the direction and content of the Threads. Doesn't care for its taste when he's not. Again, this is not about hammering Stenger, he has witnessed what will happen when a 250 gr berger is used to take a hard angling shot on a bull moose. There is no more proof needed, he has seen it, he knows it, debate should be over but it continues for some reason. Yes there was poor bullet performance, FOR THE JOB THE BULLET WAS ASKED TO DO. But this is not the job that the Berger bullet should be expected to do. Again, ask for advice before getting into that situation and everyone on here would have been more then happy to offer all kinds of advice and experience. I am sure there would have been MANY different opinions on which bullet would have been best for this application but at least he could have made a more solid decision for the job at hand. Again, that has been my point ALL ALONG. Not to hammer on Stenger but to say live and learn which is what we all have to do from time to time.

When I was around 20 years old, I decided to use a 55 gr Ballistic tip loaded in my 22-250 for hunting deer over river bottom food plots. Took MANY deer with bang flop results until one day I nice 4x4 came out across the field at around 250 yards and I planted that Ballistic tip on the shoulder of that buck. I was trying to slip it behind the shoulder but it dead centered the shoulder. It took us the entire next day to find that buck. When we cleaned it out, the onside shoulder was totally destroyed but only small bone frags and bullet frags had made it into the first lung, nothing had made it to the off side lung and the buck traveled several hundred yards into some really nasty river bottom brush. From that day on, I realized I had been playing with fire and that my choice to use the 55 gr BT on deer was a bad decision. Had I asked many more experienced hunters at that time, I would have likely gotten very solid information AGAINST using such a bullet for that application and they would have been very correct in telling me I had made a poor choice in bullet selection. Similar thing here. I was not insulting Stenger, I was simply stating the obvious, poor bullet selection pure and simple.

If you're finding me responding to your Posts on this Thread, now you should be able to understand why. This is the first Thread that I've observed you become part of this established and predictable response pattern of focusing negativity and criticism onto the member (stenger), rather than responding to the bullet performance he came here to discuss and share with us. Again, I am not supporting any bullet company and not insulting any member of LRH, my point has only been to ask first before getting into a bad situation. I have never questioned his right to post any results he gets. In fact, him posting his results simply reinforce my opinion and comments about this bullet used in this application so again, we are in total agreement. For some reason you think I am attacking him for posting his results against berger bullets, that is not the case, I am only saying and have only said these are sadly, the results you should have expected and had he asked before using, he would have gotten more valuable information so he could have made a better choice in bullets. Some may be attacking him personally, I am only saying there was a bad choice in bullets for the job at hand.

So I self-analyzed my purpose for involvement in this Thread at the time I chose to participate in it. Have you done likewise? Only point I have made still stands as true now as it did the first time I posted on the subject. Poor bullet selection is not the fault of the bullet or bullet company, we have to take some responsibility on our own shoulders, especially when today we have access to such a huge amount of free and easy information at the tips of our fingertips, just waiting to be asked for and there is no one here on LRH that would not offer all the information they had on the subject freely.

In your abbreviated quote (above), you state you really don't understand what dog I have in this fight. If you don't understand my interest in this Thread now, you may never be capable of understanding it. But to express my curiosity, you first characterize this Thread as a fight, and then immediately emphatically re-characterize it with "THERE IS NO FIGHT". What's up with that? You have turned this into US (whoever US is) attacking Stenger because he is making claims against the performance of berger bullets and YOU (whoever you is) standing up for the right of Stenger to post any results he wants to on bullet performance. My only comment has been, this was a poor bullet choice for the job at hand. I have never said that he has no right to post any result he wants to. I have also said, live and learn, you will know better next time that a Berger 250 is not a good choice for hard shots on moose. How that is attacking anyone is beyond me.

Even though you apparently believe you've been a neutral, helpful participant in responding to stenger and this Thread he initiated, perhaps you'll be able to recognize the effect of your Posts on stenger; how they've been interpreted and their affect, by taking a look-see at stenger's direct response to you: Does he feel the berger bullet was a good choice for moose hunting now that he has seen the results of the hunt, I would hope not and I could not agree more with him on that so on that topic we are 100% in agreement. Just took him a bad experience to learn it which happens a lot sadly. In the end, I am agreeing more with him then I am disagreeing with him but I feel he is taking some of the other comments and letting them color my posts in a way that are not intended. That's easy to do on the web, you read a post how you THINK its being intended and about 90% of the time, that's not the way its owner intended and then things just burn out of control and that is EXACTLY what has happened here. I would not say I am neutral. I would say as I have before, he made a poor bullet selection. We all have done this from time to time, live and learn and move on. Its the moving on that seems to be not possible for some reason. I am only speaking for myself here but it seems like you and Stenger have pointed me out as one of the main people attacking him and I do not understand that. Again, I would have NOT EXPECTED anything other then what he has reported using this bullet in this application and now he should have that same real world experience to base his next bullet choice decision on. This is how we learn as long as we can open our eyes and see what has happened for what has actually happened and not blame it on a bullet or a bullet company when we need to take some responsibility on our own shoulders for doing research and educating ourselves before trying something in the field for the first time, especially on this type of animal.



So no matter how intently you've concluded that your Posts in this Thread have been void of personal attack and accusation, the member you've directed your comments to has just clearly communicated to you, his own interpretation of them.
I have yet to hear Stenger say or type that this was a poor choice in bullet for the job at hand........ That tells me a lot.
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Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #272  
Old 10-09-2013, 02:09 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
Fifty Driver
I think you should stick to building rifles instead of acusing me of making up a story.

Last words on this subject! Shoot at your own risk when using Bergers on large or dangerous game. I don't want to see anyone get hurt.

Peace
Good luck this season.

Good hell, put your big boy pants on, learn from your decisions and move on. I was never personally attacking you. All I have ever stated was that this was a poor bullet choice for what you wanted the bullet to do. That is a true statement, just as true now as it was before you decided to use this bullet on moose.

Had you wanted to use a Hornady match bullet or Sierra match bullet you would have gotten the same exact reply from me and most others on this post.

The results you got were predictable to anyone that has taken the time to fully research the bullet of topic. Had you simply asked before hand for advice and experience you would have gotten more information then you could have ever read in one day.

In your own words you were totally uneducated about the game you would be hunting, yet its the bullet makers fault. Man up and own up to the fact this was simply a poor choice in bullets, learn your lesson and move on. That is my only point. If you take my posts as personal attacks then that's on you, that was not my intention.

I have no problem with anyone posting field results of any products but when one comes on here can reports using such a bullet for such a job and then claiming its because of bullet failure, COME ON. We need to take on some personal responsibility.

With just a few seconds of typing you could have asked a simple question and in your own words, EDUCATED yourself to avoid these results.

I have never disagreed with anything you have posted as far as results of the events that happened. They were totally predictable in my opinion. But when you post these results from a situation where the bullet chosen was an obvious mistake and then claim that its the fault of the bullet or bullet manufacturer......... Again, take SOME personal responsibility and learn from what has happened.

If you have information and data and results that support your claims, LAY IT ALL ON THE TABLE at the start of your comments. It just looks bad when you make claims of bullet failure, then MANY tell you you should have used a 300 gr version or completely different bullet design all together and then out of the blue, you have another berger bullet failure story...... I am not accusing you of anything but if you can not open your eyes and see how that looks when you do that, well, not sure what to say.

I am sure this post will be taken as a personal attack as well, so be it, not sure how to reply that would not be taken as an attack except if I said, Damn berger, they should have told you this would happen, its all their fault...... That simply is not true though. One only has to ask these days to become educated on most things, takes very little time and effort but really pays off huge in the end.

By the way, STILL have not heard if the deer in the second story was lost or recovered?
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #273  
Old 10-09-2013, 03:17 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
I have yet to hear Stenger say or type that this was a poor choice in bullet for the job at hand........ That tells me a lot.
Kirby,
Your post here (and I'm referring to your reply to me) is way more typical of what you've delivered historically. It would just about be impossible to read the information you just provided and interpret it as anything other than your effort to provide helpful advice. You stockpile of knowledge is vast, and you're characteristically nothing but helpful to any member requesting assistance. I appreciate the times you helped me directly, and the many more times I've benefited from your helpful posts to others.

My next paragraph is only intended for consideration.

No matter how we interpret our own delivery and communications, the feedback from the recipient of our communications is equally telling. I think it's clear that stenger felt accused, criticized, blamed, and verbally abused, after communicating the result his buddy experienced using one of the Berger bullets on a bull moose, and then asking for advice and recommendations on bullet selection for use on really large animals.

I'm surprised that stenger didn't lose it and respond in a much more aggressive, and defensive, manner.
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