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Long Range thick skin bullets

 
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  #260  
Old 10-09-2013, 09:53 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 125
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Now that I'm home from uni, I see some room for elaboration.
I did write the post on the fly between 2 lectures and didn't pay as much attention as necessary, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beng View Post
I'm not and wasn't addressing Stenger, he wasn't shooting ad hominems in this discussion.

Failure always implies that the device does not do it's intended work inside the design parameters, the Bergers worked within their specs though, thus they didn't fail and the alteration of the thread's title was correct.
One might say the design itself is a failure, depending on opinion or that the bullet failed to satisfy the user's expectations. That isn't the same as "the bullet failed" i.e. didn't perform the way it was designed to perform though and especially someones expectations are a construct of his making and not the product's manufacturer.
There were voices blaming Berger, at least for not providing info. Imho their general description of the hunting line of bullets, provides enough information about the bullet's behavior. One should always consider, that expansion and fragmentation are functions of resistance and distance and resistance is a function of density.
Btw. to avoid misunderstandings: A bullet is never designed to kill. It is designed to deform or fragment in a specific way, leaving a specific pattern of disrupted media behind. The form of this pattern is subject to the media's resistance.
Death is just a byproduct of the tissue disruption, depending on shot placement.
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  #261  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:04 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Western PA
Posts: 181
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Fifty Driver
I think you should stick to building rifles instead of acusing me of making up a story.

Last words on this subject! Shoot at your own risk when using Bergers on large or dangerous game. I don't want to see anyone get hurt.

Peace
Good luck this season.
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  #262  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:08 PM
RTK RTK is offline
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Join Date: May 2012
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

I think a lot of people are looking for the highest BC bullet to all exclusion when shooting game at long or short distances and becoming blinded to what is needed..

Accuracy/shot placement has always been at the top of my list but bullet selection has to be right up there too.
I don't mind dialing in a couple more moa at distance with a better constructed bullet for my needs as long as it shoots as well but has a lower BC.
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  #263  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 833
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Stenger

Youve done nothing wrong. This is what we do as hunters. We try bullets under different variables, and eventually decide on one we like.

This is one of my favorite parts of reloading for hunting. We have all seen things/performance we didnt like. Analyze them and decide what to do next.

Terminal ballistics can be very finicky. Its not uncommon to receive inconsistent results with any bullets. I hope this thread does not persuade you to stop using berger bullets because they really are good bullets. Its just a matter of figuring out the strong and weak points and using them to your advantage. I assure you will end up doing the same regardless of what bullets you do settle on.

Finally its never a bad idea to contact the manufacturer whenever you dont understand a problem youve encountered with their product. They typically understand their product better than anyone else and berger has excellent customer service. Many a times walt himself will return your email. That is one man that is full of usefull information.
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  #264  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:28 PM
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Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Bushman View Post

Finally its never a bad idea to contact the manufacturer whenever you dont understand a problem youve encountered with their product. They typically understand their product better than anyone else and berger has excellent customer service. Many a times walt himself will return your email. That is one man that is full of usefull information.

Bingo!
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  #265  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:29 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
It is also curious why you are so heated at defending him.

Not trying to make a friend with anyone here so not sure what your comments are referring to. There are about a dozen posters on this thread, including you, that are doing nothing but throwing the same things back and forth over and over. That is certainly helpful and you are also done yourself proud in doing nothing but stoking the flames at every turn with the same comments and I do not really understand what dog you have in the fight.

THERE IS NO FIGHT,
My interest in this Thread should be clear to anyone that's read my posts in the context of those member's posts and statements I've responded to. If it's not clear from my posts, it should be clear from other member's posts that have joined in the defense of stenger's right to express his experience and opinion on the performance of a hunting bullet. I have to presume you don't understand, otherwise there shouldn't be any purpose for questioning why "I'm so heated at defending him". My first response to your characterization me being heated at defending him, would be to inform you that I'm defending his right to share an experience about a bullet's performance with the membership, and his opinion about that performance. If your claim is that I'm defending him in any other sense, then you'll have to describe your claim with some further clarity.

You expressed curiosity of my involvement, and also now criticized my prolonged involvement in this Thread. In the effort to satisfy your curiosity, I respond to you now. There's a prolonged established history of transforming any member's post describing and sharing a poor experience with a Berger bullet into a negative critique of that member, rather than a neutral discussion of the bullet performance experienced. The consequence of shifting the focus of the discussion from the bullet performance experience to interrogation and criticism of the member that posted the information leads to either naturally defensive responses from the member, or more commonly the stifling and silencing of that member. And it's as simple as that.

I've countered those members that elected to shift the discussion from bullet performance, to a negative critique of the stenger. I had no doubts about the direction this thread would turn beginning with my first popcorn post. Broz likes the popcorn when he controlling the direction and content of the Threads. Doesn't care for its taste when he's not.

If you're finding me responding to your Posts on this Thread, now you should be able to understand why. This is the first Thread that I've observed you become part of this established and predictable response pattern of focusing negativity and criticism onto the member (stenger), rather than responding to the bullet performance he came here to discuss and share with us.

So I self-analyzed my purpose for involvement in this Thread at the time I chose to participate in it. Have you done likewise?

In your abbreviated quote (above), you state you really don't understand what dog I have in this fight. If you don't understand my interest in this Thread now, you may never be capable of understanding it. But to express my curiosity, you first characterize this Thread as a fight, and then immediately emphatically re-characterize it with "THERE IS NO FIGHT". What's up with that?

Even though you apparently believe you've been a neutral, helpful participant in responding to stenger and this Thread he initiated, perhaps you'll be able to recognize the effect of your Posts on stenger; how they've been interpreted and their affect, by taking a look-see at stenger's direct response to you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
Fifty Driver
I think you should stick to building rifles instead of acusing me of making up a story.

Peace
Good luck this season.
So no matter how intently you've concluded that your Posts in this Thread have been void of personal attack and accusation, the member you've directed your comments to has just clearly communicated to you, his own interpretation of them.

Last edited by phorwath; 10-09-2013 at 12:59 PM.
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  #266  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:42 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
Posts: 5,954
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Bushman View Post

Finally its never a bad idea to contact the manufacturer whenever you dont understand a problem youve encountered with their product. They typically understand their product better than anyone else and berger has excellent customer service. Many a times walt himself will return your email. That is one man that is full of usefull information.
However.... in this case the bullet was not a "hunting" bullet although we all know it has a thicker jacket than the hunting bullet, it puts Berger in an awkward position of explaining the terminal ballistics of a non-hunting bullet which they do not recommend for hunting. Not sure how that dialogue would go?

My guess is that Berger would suggest to the OP the same thing most of the rest of us have suggested which is to use the 300 gr "hunting" bullet in the 338 LM, although some guys prefer the OTM.
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