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Long Range thick skin bullets

 
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  #211  
Old 10-06-2013, 04:52 PM
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

I was there I pulled the trigger. When I refer to we I was talking about my hunting buddies
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  #212  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:01 PM
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Location: Townsend, Montana.
Posts: 7,937
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
Berger failure number 2

Whitetail deer
Range 760
Shoulder shot broadside
300 grain hunting .338
338 lapua
Velocity 2825
Bullet punched straight though the deer. Pencile hole in pencile hole out deer ran away with a busted shoulder. Happened last year might have pic of bullet cause we found it in the dirt. Expansion was poor once again. I was not going to post about this but after all the excuses on this topic I figure you should know. Like I said before we have had good luck with berger on deer before so I just thought it was a fluke but now i am starting to see a problem. First the moose was to close, poor bullet choice, wrong angle and the list goes on. So now we have the deer and it was not to close, the velocity was right and it was broadside. So now we have proper bullet choice, shot angle, and velocity with a shoulder hit. I am confused should we shoot far or close cause we had two bullets fail in two years.
"Range 760"
"shoulder hit"
"pencil hole in pencil hole out"
"deer ran away with busted shoulder"
" we found the bullet in the dirt"

So the bullet just fell out on the ground or did you have to dig for it?

Did you recover the deer or not?

Jeff
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  #213  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:02 PM
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Location: Redmond Or.
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
It would be nice to know why the thread title was changed!!! I did not do it!! Someone must be on the payroll for berger. How much for a banner that's reads berger bullets failed on a moose!!!
Hmmmm

Well, I have read, but avoided commenting this whole thread for weeks.
I am not a Berger user, so ill refrain from any comment on them that could be mis construed as such.

Q:
You'd think, a 250 gr 338 pill of any mfg would have the SD to dump a moose at most any range till you get waaaaay out there.
Why is it, that as soon as Berger is mentioned, in conjunction with bad experience(s) LOOKOUT. You gotta have a PHD, Bachelors, & Masters in rocket surgery & a hi def/ hi speed camera to back up your experience?
A:
I understand such hype about Bergers, considering this is a Long Range site, but I've also seen some terrible advise to newer guys who will likely never shoot far enough to benefit from these bullets.

Bergers may be the best thing going for the dedicated ELR crowd. But I'd venture to guess Most members are not yet ELR guys.
Alot of members aspire to be, & jump head first on the Berger bandwagon without developing the knowledge & skill to take advantage of them. It's no wonder there are new stories every year with the exact same topic "Berger failure" & 8-9 times out of 10 it's blowing up at close range, & high speed, or not opening at all.
It's also no wonder that with as many dedicated ELR guys they get pissed when a less experienced guys write "Berger failed" in their posts, when they weren't used the way ELR guys use them with great success.

In reality these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT styles of hunters.
ELR has time to wait for that 1 shot, usually has dedicated equipment, & time devoted to take advantage of these bullets.
Avg-to mid- to long range, guys (which I'm guessing make up the vast majority of members here) have varied levels of experience, & equipment, & skill.
***but many aspire to be ELR guys & get quality advise from ELR guys about what they(ELR) use. Then those guys seeking advise figure "if it's good for so & so it's good for me"***
See where this is going?
There is a step missing in the ladder here. Many don't get it.
What works great for so & so ISN'T always the best choice for aspiring ELR guys.
There are much better bullet mfg's & choices, that fit a wide variety of shot angles, game size, range, & impact speed for hunting styles other than ELR.

For the Dedicated ELR guys there are very few choices.

In short, I think it's beyond rediculous for someone to constantly prove & re prove bullet failure. Also beyond rediculous to constantly have to prove & re prove improper bullet choice/placement.
Plain & simple answer is don't use a frag bullet if you may get varying shot angles at close range or do not have time to wait for the animal to turn perfectly broadside, or run off a few hundred more yards so your bullet is going slow enough to work properly.
Then we can avoid Berger failure threads, & forensic science requirements for such threads.
Match your bullet to your hunting style. Don't claim it's the best or worst bullet ever. & we can avoid these threads.
Berger has done alot for promoting hunting at Long Range for all of us LR hunters. They deserve credit for that.
I don't however, think they deserve any special treatment etc. like possibly changing the thread title! I'd like to see/know who & how it got changed.
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  #214  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:09 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Townsend, Montana.
Posts: 7,937
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Maybe I am way off base here. But it is possible that hunters that use them at all distances might possible know more about how they do work in the field than guys that simply read about them??

Call me crazy, but I think it could be possible??

Holy crap guys lets be realistic. There are way more successful hunts with Bergers on this site than any other bullet. Most are not ELR at all. Want proof ? here are 16 pages of proof right here.

Lets see your berger kills!

How many of these would we consider ELR?

I take first year hunters out almost every year. They listen and shoot my rifle. All kind of of distances and we have yet to loose an animal.

No, I don't recommend them for everything and every distance or caliber. But the "failures" of them, on these dead animals, are way less than the success's.

There are so many people using them you are bound to get some bad reports. Just like Leupold scopes.

Jeff
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Last edited by Broz; 10-06-2013 at 05:26 PM. Reason: edit, more added
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  #215  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:32 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 3,512
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Awww, c'mon Paul... the evidence in this thread did not support bullet "failure". Poor performance maybe, but not failure. And the poor performance end of it has been thoroughly hashed out.

This thread should be about lessons learned with shooting 250 gr bullets out of a 338 LM @ close range with a less than optimum angle on a very large animal. No more, no less.

I say leave the finger pointing out of it, all the finger pointing, and decide what to do better in the future.
Mark,
I have no doubt that stenger learned lessons, as did the hunter and his guide. And I have no doubt they will act on those lessons.

These guys aren't rookies. They witnessed three bullet strikes on the bull, field dressed the animal, recovered some bullets, AND they collectively deemed it bullet failure. Who was better positioned to make the call? Better yet, who's positioned to make the judgement call on their behalf. (Don't need lectured on Len's rights to remove/edit Threads/Posts) Will the creation of a 3-page definition of the word "fail" change their opinions/conclusions? Or striking the word fail from the Title? Their collective opinion is no longer represented within the title.

You seem to support that removal. Is that how you want the expression of experiences and opinion controlled? What about when it doesn't suite your preference? Are the pleasantries of holding hands around the campfire with solely the like-minded worth it?

I've read that the bull died numerous times, and numerous times its been inferred dead bull = successful bullet performance. Really? Why don't the OP, the hunter, and his guide deem that bullet success? Because the only success that the confirmed dead bull conveys is that he didn't die later, without recovery.
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  #216  
Old 10-06-2013, 08:23 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SW Montana
Posts: 4,561
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Some seem to have forgot the posts of 250gr Nosler Accubonds not making it though elk or the plethora of Barnes than have not opened or blow their petals of and came to an early halt.

I can't find anywhere in any manufactures literature where there are specific game animals or shot angles assigned to each specific bullet, or any that tell you to load a specific bullet in a specific chambering. Why is it all of the sudden that Berger is the only bullet manufacture that should be doing this?
I've seen no info from Nosler that their ALR will blows like a grenade, some guys are seeing less penetration than a Ballistic tip yet not a whisper? Heck, this forum has the best info on the ALR out there and no one is throwing a fit that Nosler has corrupted the internet with their power!

I've been shooting the 300 OTM's at game since they came out, I've found the lowest and softest hit range I'd take with them, it was not a bullet failure it was as far as I could push it for that light animal like small deer or antelope, elk I have not found the limit with that bullet yet.
I've also found the limits on some TSX and Accubonds, all would have made epic fail threads but the reality most were just me finding the limits with that bullet and chambering, every shooter will go through the same process for themselves but it seems more popular to not just report the info but to make a production of it to gather ax grinders!
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  #217  
Old 10-06-2013, 08:42 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Central MT
Posts: 760
Re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
Berger failure number 2

Whitetail deer
Range 760
Shoulder shot broadside
300 grain hunting .338
338 lapua
Velocity 2825
Bullet punched straight though the deer. Pencile hole in pencile hole out deer ran away with a busted shoulder. Happened last year
Interesting, I had a similar experience last hunting season spotting behind my gun on a mule deer with the 338 Lapua. Only difference was the 300 OTM and 980 yards. Deer had a pencil hole in, as all of them do, and approximately a 1" hole out. The deer took off running and tipped over at about 50 or so yards.

When we recovered the deer there was a large amount of innards protruding from the exit hole. It was almost like the bullet sucked half the insides through the hole. The deer was shot thru the lungs and the bullet traveled thru the heart blowing a good sized hole thru it....and the deer still ran off. Yes I have pictures better yet the shot was on video. Those belong to the hunter and not for your pleasure. Sorry.

That bullet and shot were perfect. Sometimes the brain just doesn't want to stop right after impact. If this was the case pro boxers wouldn't last past the first good head punch.
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