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Long Range thick skin bullets

 
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  #99  
Old 09-23-2013, 01:08 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

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Originally Posted by stenger View Post
I have to disagree

Berger hunting bullets does not publish any guidance as to what animals they were designed to kill and at what velociity. They were used because we have had great sucess on medium sized game. In this situation the OTM was used specifically because it has a thicker jacket in an attempt to gain added penetration. My understanding is that the only differance is the jacket thickness between the hunting and OTM bullets. Anyway you look at it berger failed to either make a penetrating big game bullet or failed to inform us that they will only get 8 inches of penetration on a moose and split into two pieces and loose all their weight. The web site even says 14-15 inches of massive wound channel. Shot angle makes no differance if the bullets carries weight and holds together they make it into the lungs and game over. I will agree that a perfect broadside shot and we are not having this discussion. In the real world sometimes you just don't get a broadside shot but can still take and animal cleanly with quartering shots. Like I said before we love Bergers on whitetail they are great but they are not a moose bullet. Wheather its my fault, his fault for the shot angle ,or Bergers fault, or a combo of all three, the system failed and these bullets probably should not be used on moose. Sorry berger I stand behind you on the small animals but not the really big ones
Disagree with what? I basically agree with you. That said if you had loaded the 300 gr bullets instead of the 250 gr bullets we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I think it would be good for Berger to list upper level velocities for their bullets, but that might be difficult to determine depending on variables.

This thread has been educational and caused me to take a closer look at Berger's close range performance.
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  #100  
Old 09-23-2013, 01:37 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Sorry that was for Kirby
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  #101  
Old 09-23-2013, 01:56 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

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Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
That said if you had loaded the 300 gr bullets instead of the 250 gr bullets we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
Bingo! I still don't understand shooting a fragmenting, light for caliber offering, at one of if not the largest animals we can hunt. So we can have more velocity? which is exactly what causes less penetration. A 300 OTM with a MV of 2775 to 2800 would have worked a lot different.

Kirby is 100% correct when he states there was as much failure from the bullet choice used and there was bullet it self. Not to mention the choice of placement and shot angle. It would be great to see a pic of where the first hit landed and the angle it was administered. This would be very educational for further reference.


Jeff
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  #102  
Old 09-23-2013, 03:37 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

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Originally Posted by Broz View Post
It would be great to see a pic of where the first hit landed and the angle it was administered. This would be very educational for further reference.

Jeff
Yes, pictures of the entry wounds on the skinned animal would help allow each reader to draw their own conclusions. I'd also like to know the weight of the recovered lead fragments of bullets. The piece in the photo looks to be maybe 50-70 grains?

250gr isn't particularly a light for caliber .338 bullet. 200-300gr bullets seem to cover the commonly produced weights. I remember when 250 and 275gr lead core expanding bullets were the heavy weight offerings. But no disagreements with your recommendations to use the heavyweights with a frangible lead jacketed bullet on the largest of game animals - if one chooses to use a highly frangible bullet. As you have stated, the extra lead and the lower impact velocity will both help ensure a deeper wound channel.

I've shot moose with this flavor of bullet in the distant past - the Sierra 250 grain spitzer boat tail bullets loaded in .338 Win Mag. These may have been called Game Kings? I've found these lead cores completely separated from the jacket on more than one animal, but the lead core maintained a significant percentage of its original weight and often penetrated the full width of the moose, to be found just under the hide on the far side ribs. MV was around 2700 fps. Dunno about the lead composition or jacket thickness of this Sierra bullet compared to the current Bergers. In those days, these Sierras were about the heaviest bullet - with a reasonably high BC - available in .338 caliber, to my knowledge. Hornady made some 225gr Spire points. Speer made a 275gr round nose bullet. Nosler offered 250gr round nose Partitions. Winchester 250 gr round nose Silvertips. There were some 300 grain round nose solids. I think Barnes might have offered a 300 grain round nose lead core jacketed bullet, but these weren't commonly available where I shopped for bullets. I'm talking days before the development and production of the Barnes monolithics or any of the bonded core bullets - going back quite few years.
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  #103  
Old 09-23-2013, 03:46 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by stenger View Post
I have to disagree

Berger hunting bullets does not publish any guidance as to what animals they were designed to kill and at what velociity. They were used because we have had great sucess on medium sized game. In this situation the OTM was used specifically because it has a thicker jacket in an attempt to gain added penetration. My understanding is that the only differance is the jacket thickness between the hunting and OTM bullets. Anyway you look at it berger failed to either make a penetrating big game bullet or failed to inform us that they will only get 8 inches of penetration on a moose and split into two pieces and loose all their weight. HAve you EVER watched any of the Berger promo videos or advertisments? In every one they state that the bullet is designed to expand rapidly to transfer massive amount of energy to big game animals. Never once have I EVER heard claims from Berger that you can shoot through a moose at a hard quartering away angle and be confident to get the job done.The web site even says 14-15 inches of massive wound channel. Hard quartering away shot, 14-15" would not even get you to the back of the lungs. It was a bad choice to take a shot with the wrong bullet choice. Shot angle makes no differance if the bullets carries weight and holds together they make it into the lungs and game over. Berger bullets are not and HAVE NEVER BEEN designed to carry their weight after impact. Not sure what berger bullets you are thinking about but they are obviously not the ones most everyone have been using. I will agree that a perfect broadside shot and we are not having this discussion. With the 250 gr OMT I am not sure that is a true statement either. 300 gr, I would agree but not with the 250 gr weight. In the real world sometimes you just don't get a broadside shot but can still take and animal cleanly with quartering shots. If you have decided to use a 250 gr Berger bullet on moose szed targets, YOU BETTER WAIT FOR A BROADSIDE SHOT. Proof of that is in the results your complaining about. Like I said before we love Bergers on whitetail they are great but they are not a moose bullet. I think that is what everyone has been telling you. It seems there are very few learning something new here. Wheather its my fault, his fault for the shot angle ,or Bergers fault, or a combo of all three, the system failed and these bullets probably should not be used on moose. Sorry berger I stand behind you on the small animals but not the really big ones
Its not the bullets fault in any way shape or form, nor is it Bergers fault. Instead of blaming anyone, it would be great to just hear, MAN, made a bad bullet choice on that one, know better for next time!!!
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  #104  
Old 09-23-2013, 03:49 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Disagree with what? I basically agree with you. That said if you had loaded the 300 gr bullets instead of the 250 gr bullets we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I think it would be good for Berger to list upper level velocities for their bullets, but that might be difficult to determine depending on variables.

This thread has been educational and caused me to take a closer look at Berger's close range performance.
A little common sense MUST be employed by us as ammunition loaders as well. I would like to see a poll that asked one question: " would you use the 250 gr Berger OTM bullet for hard quartering away shots on mature Alaskan bull moose at close range in with a 338 Lapua?"

Yes or No.

I would bet the replies would be 90% NO. Again, a little common sense has to be used by those of us that load the ammunition.
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Kirby Allen(50)

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Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

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  #105  
Old 09-23-2013, 03:56 PM
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re: Long Range thick skin bullets

250gr isn't particularly a light for caliber .338 bullet. 200-300gr bullets seem to cover the commonly produced weights. I remember when 250 and 275gr lead core expanding bullets were the heavy weight offerings. But no disagreements with your recommendations to use the heavyweights with a frangible lead jacketed bullet on the largest of game animals - if one chooses to use a highly frangible bullet. As you have stated, the extra lead and the lower impact velocity will both help ensure a deeper wound channel.

I've shot moose with this flavor of bullet in the distant past - the Sierra 250 grain spitzer boat tail bullets loaded in .338 Win Mag. These may have been called Game Kings? I've found these lead cores completely separated from the jacket on more than one animal, but the lead core maintained a significant percentage of its original weight and often penetrated the full width of the moose, to be found just under the hide on the far side ribs. MV was around 2700 fps. Dunno about the lead composition or jacket thickness of this Sierra bullet compared the current Bergers. In those days, these Sierras were about the heaviest bullet - with a reasonably high BC - available in .338 caliber, to my knowledge. Hornady made some 225gr Spire points. Speer made a 275gr round nose bullet. Nosler offered 250gr round nose Partitions. Winchester 250 gr round nose Silvertips. There were some 300 grain round nose solids. I think Barnes might have offered a 300 grain round nose lead core jacketed bullet, but these weren't commonly available where I shopped for bullets. I'm talking days before the development and production of the Barnes monolithics or any of the bonded core bullets - going back quite few years.[/QUOTE]

Your really comparing apples to oranges with the berger 250 gr to the Sierra 250 gr simply because of bullet design. The sierra has a relatively short ogive and relatively long bullet body length. In comparision, the 250 gr Berger has a very long ogive and very short body length. Not all 250 gr bullets are created equal for penetration results. The much longer ogive means that the easier to expand ogive contains much more weight then the much blunter Sierra bullet, as such, the expansion on the Sierra bullet deforms back into the full diameter bullet body MUCH sooner then the berger bullet, as such, the Sierra will have MUCH more weight retained at this point then compared to the Berger. Less weight, less penetration.

Had this been on a 300 lb whitetail/mule deer or even 400 lb caribou or 500-600 lb elk, likely there would be no discussion here but that is not what was targeted intentionally by this hunter and on top of that, he took a very challenging shot angle for any lead core/cup jacketed bullet at the velocity level he was driving this bullet to out of the Lapua.

A 250 gr Sierra would have likely penetrated noticeably more then the 250 gr Berger but again, that's a simple bullet design issue more then anything.

I just hate to see good bullets take a beating because they are used totally incorrectly. That is not fair for Berger.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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