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Kirby, 22 AM ?

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Unread 09-18-2005, 01:25 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44
Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?

Gator, Kirby,
Hope this doesn't come under hi-jacking a thread, but I just got back from rifle range. Wife and I are both shooting 6.5-284 rifles built by Kirby. Mine is not yet done with breakin, but I am seeing positive things already. Point is my wife's gun has a Kreiger palma barrel with 8.5 twist. My gun has a Lilja 3 groove with 8 twist. I am pretty sure that Kirby used the same reamer on both guns, although I asked that mine have a longer throat. I am aware that the three groove destruction of thin jacket bullets decreases with bore size.( Kirby and I talked about it before he made my gun.) What I am seeing is my wife's gun does not shoot as well with heavy jacket bullets, where my gun with a 3 groove does not seem to like thin jackets. I am up to shooting 3 shots groups and then clean. I am using nosler 140 gr. partitions and my gun is putting three shots in .450 at 200 yds. I have tried every thing I know to do and cannot get the Krieger barrel to shoot partitions. Yet it will shoot 129 hornady sst's into .500 at 200 yd. all day long. Just thought I would throw these observations into the fray.
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Unread 09-18-2005, 05:08 PM
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Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?


I was about ready to e-mail you and see how things were going with the new rifle, sounds like there is no need to e-mail [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]!

Playing with 1/4 moa without even finishing barrel break in will allow me to sleep well tonight!!!

I have seen similiar things with the Lilja 3 groove. I will admit that I do not have a vast experience base concerning the Krieger barrels, I have built rifles with them and they have shot extremely well as your wifes rifle is but I have never personally owned one and really ran it though some detailed testing as I have the Liljas.

From my testing in calibers in the 224 and 6mm sizes, the three groove barrels are pretty hard on bullets and will limit the top velocity potential that the bullet will be able to be accurately launched at.

This is partaining to the largest of these calibers shooting the long heavy match bullets. TO see these problems you need a round that has the potential to drive an 80 gr(224") bullet to +3300 fps and a 105 gr(6mm) to +3200 fps.

In rounds that generate less velocity then this you will never see a problem in any way and in fact the advantages of the 3 groove barrels will be all you see!!

On the larger calibers, I have seen the huge 257 caliber rounds do some bullet damage in fast twist barrels with the lighter thin jacketed bullets but these are a poor combination anyway. Seems there is not much problem with the 257 and larger rounds. Probably because the jackets are thicker on these bullets from the start and the rifling have more area between land and grooves.

Like you I have seen the Lilja barrels really like hard bullets. Velocity may be a bit less then with a looser bored barrel but accuracy is generally extremely fine!!

Thanks for the update, let us know how she is running after the break in.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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Unread 09-18-2005, 05:13 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wallaroo, South Australia
Posts: 201
Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?

Gator, Your 22/284 certainly has caused you frustration, with bullet blowups. You mention that you tried every "bullet that I could get my hands on over 75 grains", so can I assume that you tried the Sierra 80 grains HPBT MK?

I have corresponded with numerous users of "big cased 224's", and note that some had problems with Berger and JLK 80 grain VLD's coming apart at 3500+ velocities, but cannot recall anyone having bullet blowup with Sierra 80 grain MK.

I just looked through several emails from 22/6mm AI users, and all were using the 80 grain MK with no problems at velocities up from 3500 and up to 3750 fps in 1 in 8 twist barrels.(not sure how many grooves)

I chronographed the Sierra 80 grain MK in my 224 Clark at velocities up to 3730 fps, but as expected, due to the 1 in 10 twist barrel, the bullets did not stabilise and keyholed into the 100 yard target. However, all bullets did reach the target.

I also noted that some of the big case .224 users were using the 80 grain MK Moly bullet with success.

Assuming that the 80 grain MK did "dust" in your Lilja 1 in 8 twist barrel, then I can offer no other possible explanation other than what Kirby has already suggested.

As mentioned in my post above, I was considering using a 3 groove 1 in 7 twist barrel, in my next .224 Clark, but in view of Kirby's and your experience, I will revert to a 6 groove configuration. Good luck in solving your barrel dilemna. Brian.
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Unread 09-18-2005, 11:56 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?

Hello all i was wondering if any one has tried the 90gr Sierra in there 8 twist barrels they are supposed to stabalise in the 8 twist with 22-250AI and larger cases. I also have a 6.5 twist barrel being made here in Australia MAB has ordered a button for any one looking for a faster twist it will be a 6 grove. Sorry if it is off topic a bit.

Cheers Bill
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Unread 09-19-2005, 08:49 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bradley, Oklahoma
Posts: 39
Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?

I thought that I had tried the 80 gr. Sierra but could not find any load data but, I am at work and will not be home for at least another week.
Will check to see if any are on the loading desk, if not I just may have to consider them.

This thread is rekindling my desire for a hot 22 caliber for varminting again.

I remain optimistic since bullet makers continue to try to please us shooters with a new concept every once in a while.

I donít think the 90 gr. Sierra was on the shelf at the time I was working on the 22x284 project but it would be interesting to find out if anyone has tried them in a 1:8 twist barrel, especially a 3 groove Lilja.
Sierra recommends them in a 1:6.5Ē twist and have a B.C. of .504 above 2200 fps.

I think its going to be interesting to see how Richards 100 gr. ULD RBBT performs, thatís a good looking bullet.

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Unread 09-19-2005, 09:25 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 347
Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?

The 90 grain sierra stablized just fine out of my 8 twist douglas in a 22 BR. I shot them out to 1100 yards and had no problems. Velcioty was 3000 FPS
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Unread 09-19-2005, 10:13 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: on the rifle range in Utah
Posts: 2,704
Re: Kirby, 22 AM ?

My 22-284 would shoot any bullet up to 3650 with no blow-ups until the throat got so rough that it shredded everything sent down it. From this experiment, I learned that the Berger 80 grain were much tougher than the 75 amax, but not anywhere near as tough as the 80 MK. The MK was the last to finally start to blow up. One thing that made my gun shoot all the bullets when new without blowups was the 8 groove Shilen. As Kirby has mentioned, the 3 groove is tough on bullets. I have witnessed in other guns as well that the more grooves you have, the gentler the stress on the bullet.
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