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Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

 
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  #1  
Old 08-24-2014, 10:30 AM
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Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

A while back there was a thread on a W3PS, a new bullet company advertising very high BCs. There was some debate as to whether these new bullets really meet their specs, and various forum members mentioned acquiring bullets for testing.

Have any independent BC measurements been done with an accepted BC measurement method (near velocity and time of flight; near and far velocity)?

I think some 155 grain .308 bullets had been sent to Michael Eichele who intended to use the near and far velocity method and conduct a side-by-side comparison with the 155 AMAX. Are these results available yet?

Personally, I share the skepticism expressed by forum members that these bullets have BCs anywhere near what is being advertised. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I cannot find much in terms of evidence supporting these extraordinary BC claims.
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  #2  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:06 AM
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Re: Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

I haven't seen any velocity-based or time-of-flight based BC test results for these bullets posted on this Forum.

Michael Eichele hunts, and Alaska hunting seasons are in full swing now.

I've chronographed the 265gr .338 HAT aluminum tipped bullets at the muzzle and at 300yds years ago and the BC didn't live up to the values HAT's bullet tester stated he was receiving based on measured drops. This bullet had the same construction features as the W3P bullets. Rebated base boatails with a lead core and aluminum tip.

I've chronographed a 190 gr .308 rbbt aluminum-tipped custom bullet made by elkaholic using Corbin dies at the muzzle and again at 1000 yds. The BC I generated was good, and very close to what Rich told me to expect, but no where near what W3P is currently advertising for their bullet. And elkaholic's bullet looks identical to those being manufactured by W3P (also manufactured using Corbin bullet dies).

I shoot over a triplicate chronograph setup (skyscreens for three separate chronograph units mounted on a single 6 foot long rail), receiving three velocities for each bullet fired, so I have confidence in my measured velocities.

W3P has stated that their advertised BCs are mathematically generated using a software program based on the input of bullet dimensions (measurements). IF the advertised BCs for the W3P bullets were being realized by users of those bullets, I would expect W3P would be passing along that supportive product information on this Forum. Nothing...

I expect Michael Eichele will post his findings, but he warned us it would take some time due to work and scheduling.
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:26 AM
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Re: Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
I haven't seen any velocity-based or time-of-flight based BC test results for these bullets posted on this Forum.

Michael Eichele hunts, and Alaska hunting seasons are in full swing now.
Thanks for the update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
I've chronographed the 265gr .338 HAT aluminum tipped bullets at the muzzle and at 300yds years ago and the BC didn't live up to the values HAT's bullet tester stated he was receiving based on measured drops. This bullet had the same construction features as the W3P bullets. Rebated base boatails with a lead core and aluminum tip.

I've chronographed a 190 gr .308 rbbt aluminum-tipped custom bullet made by elkaholic using Corbin dies at the muzzle and again at 1000 yds. The BC I generated was good, and very close to what Rich told me to expect, but no where near what W3P is currently advertising for their bullet. And elkaholic's bullet looks identical to those being manufactured by W3P (also manufactured using Corbin bullet dies).
Right. I think a lot of companies depend on the fact that very few shooters will actually measure the BCs, but rather just be happy with good accuracy and high advertised BCs. We blissfully shot Noslers for years at ranges to 250 yards, and never noticed the BC problem until we started shooting longer range, which pushed us into measuring BCs with the near and far chronograph method. After we published our first BC paper in 2007, people began asking us to measure BCs of different bullets and to address more challenging drag problems (effects of Sg, air density, damping of pitch and yaw, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
I shoot over a triplicate chronograph setup (skyscreens for three separate chronograph units mounted on a single 6 foot long rail), receiving three velocities for each bullet fired, so I have confidence in my measured velocities.
We've found that velocity measurements with infrared skyscreens are rock solid dependable. When we measure BCs, we start with two or three chronographs all in a row 10, 12, and 14 feet from the muzzle to confirm that all three are reading the same. Then we move the middle and far chronographs out to their positions, usually 160 and 310 feet or 310 and 610 feet. Sometimes we don't use the middle chronograph. The middle chronograph tells us more about stability and damping of pitch and yaw than it does about BC, so its use depends on the purpose of the experiment. Lining up three chronographs is more work and increases the risk of shooting one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
W3P has stated that their advertised BCs are mathematically generated using a software program based on the input of bullet dimensions (measurements). IF the advertised BCs for the W3P bullets were being realized by users of those bullets, I would expect W3P would be passing along that supportive product information on this Forum. Nothing...
This approach has been known for years to generate BCs that are overly optimistic by 20-30% compared with what real shooters will see. From 2004-2008 several of the bullet companies (Berger, Barnes, Hornady) moved to more reliable techniques based on actually measuring BCs. Sierra and Speer have long used real and reliable methods of BC determination.
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  #4  
Old 08-24-2014, 12:31 PM
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Re: Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

We can't hear you jfseaman. Could you force it out a little louder?

Is that the best you've got to offer regarding BC values? Where's your BC data for your W3P bullets? Oh, that's right. It's not important to you, so it's not allowed to be important to anyone else. That's a jfseaman regulation! Fully enforced with large ugly FONT by another Forum Marshall. Wannabe Marshall jfseaman.

Pssst... FYI, you're not important either. Tee hee!

Like I've stated on more than one occasion to you directly in the past - you still clearly don't know what to do - so just go away.
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  #5  
Old 08-24-2014, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Posts: 615
Re: Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

I have been waiting to see Michael Eichele's report, but figured he was busy hunting, as phorwath mentioned. Michael Courtney, do you have any plans on shooting them?
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  #6  
Old 08-24-2014, 12:58 PM
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Re: Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by cohunter14 View Post
I have been waiting to see Michael Eichele's report, but figured he was busy hunting, as phorwath mentioned. Michael Courtney, do you have any plans on shooting them?
Not unless someone pays us to or we can evaluate credible information suggesting they show more promise for long range work than the high BC offerings from Sierra, Hornady, Berger, and Nosler.

If an independent source verified that they have measured BCs within 5% of the marketing claims, I probably couldn't keep my colleagues from buying some and testing the BCs the next time we set up the system.

Even a report of 10% within the published BC specs for the 220 and 230 grain RBT models would generate a lot of interest in determining the flight consistency and shot to shot consistency of the BCs.

It has long been known that a pointed tip can give higher and more consistent BCs than open tipped match bullets. Using steel may also enhance armor penetration. Taken together, the design elements might not just yield a bullet with consistent and high BCs, but it may also yield a bullet with excellent terminal performance with a chance of getting JAG approval for combat use.

Ever since the two Canadian snipers recorded kills over 2000m with the 750 gr Hornady A-MAX, there has been optimism that a tipped long range bullet could receive JAG approval. The closer the tip is to that of the M855A1, the higher the odds of JAG approval, since the M855A1 is already approved.

However, the demands for manufacturing consistency on this composite design are very high. Poor tolerances will yield a bullet with a lot of pitch and yaw in flight which will poorly impact accuracy and drag.
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  #7  
Old 08-24-2014, 02:11 PM
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Re: Independently verified BCs for Whiskey 3 Precision Bullets

jfseaman, please do not post in this thread.
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