Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


How Do You Get A Low "ES" Velocity Number ??

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 11-15-2007, 03:39 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Great Falls, MT
Posts: 203
While you guys were conversing I started a thread in the handloading forum asking for reloading techniques. NYLES had the idea, I just posted it over there.

I would also appreciate reading an article from Shawn on the subject. If you do undertake that project, thank you.
Genises 27-3: Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison...
Reply With Quote

Unread 11-15-2007, 05:36 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 309
Adding to Shawn

I have a chart of primer variables that must be factored into low ES numbers but the quick and dirty for large rifle accuracy uses is to use BR-2 primers as they are consistent and MILD . As I recall, the Win primers are also consistent but Hot, Hot! More to follow. Chart is filed under "S" as in "somewhere" but process of elimination will have me look in my reloading log--eventually--- Overbore
Member, Revolutionary War Veterans Association
Reply With Quote
Unread 11-15-2007, 08:48 PM
Gold Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 912
Thanks Shawn and Bill for your thoughts on this.

How do you measure the 2 bearing surface measurements ?

I'd also love to see a " loading cook book ". Maybe you could call it " My Eleven Secret Herbs and Spices For Practical Reloading " by S Carlock !!!!

What do you thinks about that SC ?
With each step in the bush, you are a step closer.

Last edited by Down Under Hunter; 11-15-2007 at 08:51 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
Unread 11-16-2007, 12:08 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: on the rifle range in Utah
Posts: 2,704
Originally Posted by Shawn Carlock View Post
My notes on low ES, in order.

1. Sort bullets by baring surface.
2. Sort bullets by forward baring surface to base.
3. Get consistant case volume, I do this by taking once fired cases, trimmed to length, prepped and weigh them.
4. Use a bushing sizing die with the right neck tension.
5. Graphite powder the inside of the neck of the case.
6. After seating the bullet set all bullets to the same length based on the OAL from the forward baring surface to the base of the case. This will give you more consistant effective case volume and jump to the lands.
7. Experiment with load variables, powders and primer combos. Hogden Extreame powder seem to be better about this. Certain primer powder combos also seem to work better together.
8. If you get in the low teens and or single digits be happy don't strive for a goal that makes no practical difference. At 10-15 fps ES most people will never see a difference in the performance vs. 7 or 8 fps ES.
9. Your shooting an Edge - H1000, CCI 250, 300 SMK's and follow the above you'll be a happy guy.

I have to politely disagree on some of the above points. Es and/or standard deviation is most easily affected by powder type and the amount used. This accounts for 90% of either a bad or good deviation. All the other stuff you mentioned has some effect but all combined makes up the last 10%.

Here's my proof:
I mess with this stuff for a living and I can tell you that I can take un-prepped cases, un-measured bullets, dry necks, bad seating dies, and any other manner of garbage and still produce good deviations with the right powder and charge. It may not be the best and will surely improve if all the other stuff is done to the equation, but satisfactory results can be achieved. (We are of course talking about velocity uniformity strictly here and not at all about accuracy.)On the flip side of that coin, you can have perfect brass, perfect bullets, perfect dies, exactly matching case volumes and still produce horrible standard deviations.

The key to a low standard deviation is powder, powder, powder and how much you are using of it. Primers can change things as well, but if you're going to change primers, you could have just as easily changed powders and you're still going to be back at square one.

And the comment about Hodgdon usually giving smaller SD's: I have never seen that at all. Nothing even remotely like it. I can and have gotten sd's in the 50's with just about all the Hodgdon powders and as frequently as any other brand. If your gun likes Hodgdon, use it. If it doesn't, don't beat your head against the wall trying to MAKE it like it. Just try another powder and almost like magic the numbers can improve.

Also, a good load that has a standard deviation of 6 or 7 fps will probably be more likely to keep those numbers throughout the aggregate than a load that has 15 fps. So try to get sd's down as low as possible. If you can't get them any better than 15, don't give up on it entirely. Just go check for group size at long range and you might just be surprised.

An SD of 6 or 7 just shows me that there is a good node there and I'm on the right track with my powder choice.

If you're just shooting out to 300 yards or thereabouts, you can just pick a load that has good accuracy and forget the numbers if you like but I can't do that. I want my ammo good for every situation close and far. And good numbers still show you what the map says for finding an accuracy node anyway.
Find it
Range it
Click it
Pull it
Dump it

If it's not far, it's boring.
Reply With Quote
Unread 11-16-2007, 01:39 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska
Posts: 3,740
Originally Posted by goodgrouper View Post
And the comment about Hodgdon usually giving smaller SD's: I have never seen that at all. Nothing even remotely like it. I can and have gotten sd's in the 50's with just about all the Hodgdon powders and as frequently as any other brand. If your gun likes Hodgdon, use it. If it doesn't, don't beat your head against the wall trying to MAKE it like it. Just try another powder and almost like magic the numbers can improve.
Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Did I mention ditto?

Well put GG.
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
Reply With Quote
Unread 11-16-2007, 01:49 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NC
Posts: 352
When I read the original post and then all the responses on pg 1, I was forming my thoughts on my own reply . But when I got to pg 2 I read goodgrouper's response. And I concur.

Powder, primer, and load is worth the biggest chuck of the small ES numbers and accuracy. Then play with (increasing) neck tension. That has been the trend I have seen in my rifles over time.
All the other stuff is usually worth unmeasurable differences that can only be "seen" with the use of statistical analysis. Or sometimes you do things "because it makes me feel better" and you have more confidence because of it. Which is not a problem, just don't talk yourself into believing it for real after time. And that is from a long range benchrest shooter. I'm a perfectionist and love details. One of the reason I love shooting BR competition. But the longer I play this game the less fancy stuff I do at the reloading bench and the more I try to do at the shooting bench tuning loads.

I've seen guys try a lot of wildcats, fancy shoulder designs, worry about 1/2" tighter or looser twist, etc etc. But there are certain cartridges and powder combinations that simply work no matter what you do to them. And when a load starts shooting consistant small groups on paper at long range you can go back and shoot across the chrono and the numbers will be good. But the flip side of the coin isn't the same outcome. You can shoot across the chrono with good numbers and you might spray the target at long range. Kirby touched on this in another post last week also when dealing with some of his customers. Don't let the results of the chrono drive the bus. The old saying about "the proof is in the pudding".... for long range shooting "the proof in on paper". The group size and shape should drive the bus. Everything else is just an exercise in wearing out a good barrel and wasting good bullets.

These may sound like strong words and it's not my intent to be confrontational at all, but if you concentrate on working on a good CONSISTANT load in variying conditions that stays accurate with only a small amount of tweaking to keep it grouping tight.... the ES numbers will be there without using many "tricks".

just my experience,

Reply With Quote
Unread 11-16-2007, 10:02 AM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 1,877
I guess I should have clarified by post a little more. I too agree that powder charge/primer selection are the biggest keys to low ES, by far. Once you have gotten as far as your going to go with that to get the lowest possible you work the neck tension and case volume. Graphiting the neck directly effects consistant neck tension. Everyting else is geared around consistant volume and jump to the rifling. When I first realized the huge effect of ES at extreme distances and started to look at how to lower it in one of my first Edge's the first thing I did was switch from FED Mag. Match primers to CCI 250's and cut my ES almost in half and was in the mid to low teens. Graphite, consistant bullets, consistant seating depth based on forward baring surface, and case weight got me into mid and low single digits. Loaded like this out of 10 rounds I get 6 or 7 exaclty the same. I shot some test groups @ 1276 yards with a 5-8 ES group and a 12-14 ES group and got a average group difference of 1.7 inches. A 25 ES group was scary in comparison. GG is absolutly correct in saying that powder / primer combos are by far the most important, it just depends on how much performance your after as to how much work you want to put into it. I am the king of I like to shoot not reload so I don't invest my time in reloading activities that have not proven to be a benefit. Hope this helps. In the end alot of people have different experiences and opinions and this is mine.
Shawn Carlock
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads for: How Do You Get A Low "ES" Velocity Number ??
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need help with "true velocity" for a drop chart kudu Long Range Hunting & Shooting 22 08-09-2011 04:15 PM
Velocity loss from 26" to 24" 300 RUM sdowney Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 1 05-11-2011 09:11 AM
What are "break velocity" and "retard. coeffic. rate"? Monkeyleg Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 1 01-02-2011 12:14 AM
Hodgdon's "Extreme Powder" - reduce velocity variations due to temperature changes Len Backus Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 45 10-14-2010 12:11 AM
22" vs. 24" vs. 27" barrel; velocity differnce on a .260? Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 4 02-17-2010 08:09 AM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2015 Long Range Hunting, LLC