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Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

 
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  #162  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:38 PM
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Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

ME,

I just got off of the telephone with Sierra. I am not certain the represenative understood my question, because he went into an explaination of nose precession. When I attempted clarification, he stated that it is the nose tip through which trajectory is traced.

I know this is incorrect, and I will find documentation for you. The Sierra represenative could not provide a reference either.

This link is good, and may even spell out the answer. I know it will contradict the answer which I was given.

Best,
Noel

www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm-11k
  #163  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:38 PM
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Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

Noel,

There is no question that a projectiles COG will always fallow its trajectory line, or at least be very close. I think you are missing my point.

If you take a bullet with the nose up, it has been tested and proven in some cases that its trajectory will be flatter then a bullet with a "nose on" trajectory line.

In both trajectories, the bullets center of gravity will fallow the trajectory line or at least be very close, BUT, how to the two different trajectories compare to each other. That was my only point.

One other thing to consider as well. We are talking about standard match bullets that are designed for muzzle velocities in the 2500-2800 fps range for the most part.

There are very few "match" grade bullets that are specifically designed for velocities WELL over 3000 fps. I have found that even with the SMK, that when velocity spreads are dramatic, say from 3000 fps to 3500 fps, there can be a noticable change in BC value. I have seen this go both ways, both up and down so it does not seem overly consistant or predictable so there is something going on with these big velocity shifts causing this measurable shift in BC.

I suspect there are no mathematical equations to predict this. I say this because it does not seem to be consist over a wide range of bullets.

Again, my tests were not with these bullets in question but similiar bullets and I can say for a fact that the BC value for those bullets, changed dramatically, even though they were all fired through Lilja 1-10 twist, 6 groove barrels. Only real difference was muzzle velocity.

Could it be that there are things at play that we simply have not written the equation for? I know scientists will jump all over that and say physics is physics but I have done enough shooting with these extreme wildcats and extreme bullets to know strange or unconventional results happen all the time. Maybe things just aren't as simple as it seems.

It was impossible to pull a BC number and plug it into my exbal and get it to produce a trajectory identical to my actual bullet flight. That is one reason I had to shoot at various ranges, plot the actual bullet drops and then manipulate the imput data to get the ballistic program to match actual bullet flight.

I have never had such problems with conventional chamberings with conventional bullets. Which leads me to think there are other considerations that have to be made when using such a combo to produce an accurate drop chart. Simply coming up with a paper BC number from an equation often times will not cut it.

This is not my opinion, its been fact when developing drop charts for several of my wildcats and these extreme performance bullets. Perhaps we just need a a new drag function specifically for this type of bullet.

Said it many times before and will again, if your interested, order some and test them and post your results. The more results we get the more accurate of a BC we will get and more usible the data will be.
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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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  #164  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:38 PM
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Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightvarmint View Post
Bryan,

When viewing the impacts on the target board, the impacts are in the vertical plane and not at an angle. If you look through your scope, the drops are vertical.... You go to the aiming point and measure where the bullet impacts intersect the reticle.The true drops were viewed through three calibrated scopes as I have previously stated.

If I would have had the board 90 degrees vertical, I could have measured them and converted to moa. But since it was not 90 degrees vertical, the reticle had to be used for the trajectory values.

...

James

James,

Am I misunderstanding what you just wrote. You measured the drops from 928yds through your scopes?
What type reticles do you have? For that matter, what kind of glass are you using to see the holes at 928yds?
You said the drops where from -10.3 to -10.5 moa. Was that the center of the groups?
How many shots where in each of the groups?
How many groups where shot?

I don't understand why the center of the group wasn't found at the target and actual measurement with a caliper was used from the center of the groups to the aim point? This is how I always measure my drops and it's much easier than trying to see the holes at nearly 1000yds and then estimate the MOA using a reticle.

Hopefully I just misunderstood your posting.

AJ
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  #165  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:55 PM
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Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

Fiftydriver,

Now I understand what you are saying.

You are correct that a bullet with a nose up trajactory will fly "flatter" than one which has a nose which traces (along with the CG) the actual line of trajectory. That is because the nose must be above the line of trajectory to be dynamically stable. Typically, this "angle of repose" is less than one degree (more like 30 minutes).

When Bryan mentioned a two degree angle of repose pertaining to the HAT (I picked this up second hand Bryan, so correct me if I am misquoting), he was actually estimating a relatively high angle of attack. This would generate excessive lift.

-Noel

Last edited by noel carlson; 04-14-2009 at 07:13 PM.
  #166  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:38 PM
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Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska
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Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
Noel,

If you take a bullet with the nose up, it has been tested and proven in some cases that its trajectory will be flatter then a bullet with a "nose on" trajectory line.

One other thing to consider as well. We are talking about standard match bullets that are designed for muzzle velocities in the 2500-2800 fps range for the most part.

I suspect there are no mathematical equations to predict this. I say this because it does not seem to be consist over a wide range of bullets.


Could it be that there are things at play that we simply have not written the equation for? I know scientists will jump all over that and say physics is physics but I have done enough shooting with these extreme wildcats and extreme bullets to know strange or unconventional results happen all the time. Maybe things just aren't as simple as it seems.
Bingo

Bingo

Bingo

And a double BINGO for the last part.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
Please just answer one very simple question. Why would anyone shooting long range load a low BC , low SD 168 gr offering in a 300 win???????

My answer to this is. The only reason is to make the 7 RM look good. There is no other reason.

Jeff.
  #167  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:44 PM
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Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska
Posts: 3,418
Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by noel carlson View Post
ME,

I just got off of the telephone with Sierra. I am not certain the represenative understood my question, because he went into an explaination of nose precession. When I attempted clarification, he stated that it is the nose tip through which trajectory is traced.

I know this is incorrect, and I will find documentation for you. The Sierra represenative could not provide a reference either.

This link is good, and may even spell out the answer. I know it will contradict the answer which I was given.

Best,
Noel

www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm-11k

This is a picture from the link you just posted.

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig15.htm



Now I will agree than under normal circumstances as we know them to be, a bullet's CG will follow the trajectory line. Violate the normal circumstances and it is usually possible to see results NOT so normal.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
Please just answer one very simple question. Why would anyone shooting long range load a low BC , low SD 168 gr offering in a 300 win???????

My answer to this is. The only reason is to make the 7 RM look good. There is no other reason.

Jeff.

Last edited by Michael Eichele; 04-14-2009 at 07:50 PM.
  #168  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:55 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 214
Re: Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

ME,

Other than affirmation, I am not certain how "Bingo" should be interpreted.

Your order of emphasis appears to favor a "magical" preference. I do agree with FD's final point in a significant way... there are surprises all the time in my work. I will be the first to embrace the proposition that a problem is interesting, by virtue, of a level of unpredictability.

That said, this thread is akin to the "cold fusion" discovery of a few years ago. Many, otherwise thoughtful, people bought into it. Physical laws are not violated in the course of discovery.
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