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Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

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  #43  
Unread 01-11-2010, 05:17 PM
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Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post
For the reading impaired. One more time real slowly. This is what I advised him about killing a deer at a mile:

I personally am not planning on starting all over. I have a 7mm that easily reaches a mile.
And which point/issue does this respond to? OK, I'm one of your "reading impaired" and you've made me to feel simply terrible. Was there any part of this response that added clarification to the preceding post?

Originally Posted by Buffalobob
Mark
"If it was legal and if there was a FMJ out there that had a higher BC and would get me better accuracy downrange I would have no hesitancy in using it."


and more specifically:

..."but are there others that feel OK about shooting game animals at distances where the bullet has dropped substantially below manufacturer's advertised expansion velocity, such that the bullet may not expand?"

Last edited by phorwath; 01-11-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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  •   #44  
    Unread 01-11-2010, 05:45 PM
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    Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

    Mark

    Send me a PM with your email address in it and I will email you my standard Word document that I use for the guys who cannot afford a chronograph but want to do the best they can anyway.
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      #45  
    Unread 01-11-2010, 11:23 PM
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    Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

    To those who have raised an eyebrow over my view on expanding vs. non expanding. The issue is reasonable penetration and accuracy are first and formost. Good expansion is great and well received but not if it won't penetrate deeply enough. I was only commenting that alot of people get wound up on certain numbers like energy, expanded frontal area, retained weight etc. My number one concern is ability to place the bullet accurately followed by adequate penetration. In this scenerio 300% frontal expansion and 100% weight retention would be awesome but I won't lose sleep if my bullet won't do this. With the 300 gr SMK (I have shot a few animals with these at a varity of distances) you can expect full penetration on a deer on most shots out to 1900+ as long as you don't get into the shoulder very much. If you have an impact velocity of 1800 fps or more you will get pretty good bullet expansion most of the time. I like to shoot bone so I am drawn to the deep penetrating traits of the SMK an like the fact that most of the time it still expands. I have shot 3 elk over 1000, 1 black bear and a hand full of whitetails none showed huge exit wounds, all dropped within 30 yards and most dropped where they stood. I give credit to shot placement and penetration as expansion was not a contributing factor on an of them. Hope this helps make it clear.

    Mark,

    On the 1935 yards shot, you will be ablew to see the DVD soon but here is the quick and dirty version of bullet performance:

    Impact velocity was 1280 fps and about 1100 ft/lbs
    Shot was quartering to, inpact was mid ribcage entry and exit half way between the ribcage and front of the hip on the off side.
    Exit wound was not visible until skinned and was about the size of a nickel.
    Animal moved about 30 yards and folded.
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      #46  
    Unread 01-12-2010, 02:15 AM
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    Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

    Thanks Shawn, that is a very interesting report. Since you've got a good idea that the bullet will not expand on a shot of that distance, have you ever considered just using a non-expanding solid with a higher BC. My homework tells me the GS SP 295 vs the 300 SMK @ 2000 yds will have drop of 52 vs 64 MOA, KE of 1528 vs 995, vel of 1527 vs 1222 and 1 mph wind drift of 15" vs 20".
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      #47  
    Unread 01-12-2010, 03:50 AM
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    Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Thanks Shawn,
    ...have you ever considered just using a non-expanding solid with a higher BC?
    Oh ohhh. Down to the nitty gritty. And solids are legal in Alaska.

    I've personally observed two intances of failure to perform/impress with through the ribs non-expanded bullets. As previously reported, I shot a Dall Ram - standing still - through the ribs at no further than 13 yds with a .284 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. Same location I've killed a number of whitetail deer with a broadhead back in Michigan. I watched in amazement as blood splotches developed on both sides of the white furred rib cage. For the first 10-15 minutes, this ram looked to be alert and in pretty good health. That last 15 - 20 minutes, his breathing was labored and his condition continued to deteriorate. After 25 minutes I get up and walk down to where he bedded down (about 180 yds from where he'd first been hit) to seal the deal and he jumps up and can still wobbly run away. I skinned the animal, field butchered and autopsied him. I'd be dumbfounded if this animal's response was the exception to the rules, but I hardly ever say never...

    So I'm very interested to read about your current thoughts and opinion in response to MR's question Shawn. You may have had repetitive positive experiences.

    Last edited by phorwath; 01-12-2010 at 10:20 AM.
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      #48  
    Unread 01-12-2010, 09:40 AM
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    Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

    Don't get me wrong I would like the bullet to expand as long as it will penetrate deep enough all the time. I have yet to shoot a solid bullet that really wowed me with its accuracy. I am testing some in the near future though that show some promise. I believe that the failure of non expanded bullets to do the job is a result of not hitting bone or penetrating vital organs. Alot of people shot recover the animal gut it out looking at damage to the organs quickly then look in the chest cavity to see the entrance and exit wound properly place and write the lack of killing power up to bullet performance. I believe that on closer inspection of the organs will find that most people shoot too high for a heart hit and many times only hit one lung. Even though placement was really good bullets don't always penetrate the organs like we think.
    During the thousands of hours of SWAT training I have attended over the years the ability to incapacitate a deadly aggressor is a hotly debated subject. In the hundreds of shooting reports, autopsies, real shootings and video I have seen one thing is perfectly clear, you can count on nothing 100% of the time to work. A side from that the the highest % shot is to the CNS this requires penetration. Next in line is multiple penetrations of organs that bleed alot this doesn't include lung only hits as they take away the ability to put air in the blood and really don't produce the serious bleeding effect we are looking for. (They are great for tracking because they blow alot of the blood loss that they do produce from the animal.) Gunshots to a single lung hit are usually recoverable. Hits to the heart where 1 or more chambers are penetrated seldom are recoverable and will usually make the subject passout from lack of blood pressure in short order. Hits that penetrate the heart, lung and spine drop them like magic but this is a small target.
    Back to animal engagements, shooting to the high shoulder (but not to high) is my prefered shot some like this some don't. Like all things it is not perfect there is an area with the HSS that the bullet can penetrate the shoulder but not the spine or the lungs, this is a small window though and you have still broken up the shoulders. In my mind the HSS on a deer for instance is a circle of only about 4-5 inches for maximum effect. Hitting this circle requires acccuracy and penetration both. The hit produces bullet fragments along with bone fragments that perforate the organs of the chest cavity. Is it perfect ..... No doese it work 100% of the time .... No Does it work a very high % of the time .... Yes. But lets look at the 2 shots when placement is not perfect. Take the crease shot if the heart is missed (easy to do) we now are counting on the lungs to not get air into the blood if by chance only one lung is hit well or one only partially collapses we now have a slow bleeding animal still getting air in the blood and it will be a long day. If the high shoulder shot goes less than perfect one of 2 things will happen the shoulders will be broken and the chest cavity will not be effected enough but the animal is now imobile. If you miss the shoulder mark and hit back you are in the crease back at the single / double lung issue. Lung shots tend to be more effective with fragmenting bullets but if you miss the mark with them and hit the shoulder you may have a 3 legged 2 lunged animal and several really long days ahead of you. So that is the best explanation I have for what I do in terms of bullet selection and placement. This is why I have always said for me it is about placement and penetration.
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      #49  
    Unread 01-12-2010, 10:00 AM
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    Re: Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

    Thanks for the detailed response and expressing your thoughts and opinions Shawn.
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