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Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

 
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  #8  
Old 01-02-2009, 12:08 AM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

Michael,
Are you saying that you believe the 178 Amax bullets can actually fly with a BC of over 1.000, or that some combination of variables presents the illusion that it's happening?
-Bryan
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  #9  
Old 01-02-2009, 12:23 AM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

I dont know why it happened. I just know it happened. Has it happened for me in every rifle? No. In fact it only did it for me in one rifle and it was a given load to boot. Call me crazy. The bullets were only dropping 6 MOA at 600 yards and should have been dropping 7.85 MOA. In case youre wondering, yes, I know how to calculate proper ballistics. This is the only time I have ever experianced this. The next closest thing was the 190 SMK in my rig yielding a .563 BC and the 155 AMAX which was giving me a .474 BC (0.014) over published, which is only slightly above published. Most other bullets I have used offer less than published.

Now I am not going to sit here and tell you that it couldnt be other variables to offer an illusion of a ultra high BC but I certainly could never figure out what those variables could be. It was what is was.

All atmosperic data was collected and calculated minus humidity, zero was spot on at 300 yards. No my sight height was not misscalculated.

In short yes I believe a given bullet in perfect harmony with all of the factors that go into internal and exterior ballistics and their relationship with eachother can in some circumstances give way to BC's that are off the chart.

I guess you have never had such an experiance?

There is a link below from some time ago about when I originaly had this phenomenon. Jerry Teo shared similar results with similar bullets.

I am SOOOOOO confused. HEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

Last edited by Michael Eichele; 01-02-2009 at 12:40 AM.
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  #10  
Old 01-02-2009, 12:56 AM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

Using drop to calculate BC is a risky thing. The uncertainties in group center, consistency of sight adjustments, vertical wind currents, and other less well known tangibles can cause HUGE swings in a BC that's calculated from observed drop. It can be done, but it has to be a carefully controlled and sterile test environment which most of the time it isn't.
I'm not 'callin you out', but I personally don't believe that a projectile can magically achieve any kind of supernatural drag reduction that would cause it to fly with a much higher BC than other similarly shaped bullets. I DO believe that conditions can exist that can REDUCE the effective BC of a bullet fired from a particular barrel like marginal gyroscopic stability and excessive initial yaw rate induced by barrel whip. However, when a bullet is fired with adequate stability, and it flies with no yaw thru the atmosphere, that bullet still has to pay the energy bill it takes to make all that noise and heat. It pays with work (forceXdistance), and that energy is subtracted from the bullets kinetic energy. There's no way around it, even if we think we're seeing it.
I have seen things that were inconsistent and gave me pause on occasion, but something usually surfaces that explains it like a misreading chronograph, or some other malfunctioning piece of instrumentation. I have no problem dismissing the measurements that defy the law of conservation of energy whether I discover the exact cause of the error or not.
-Bryan
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  #11  
Old 01-02-2009, 01:33 AM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl135 View Post
but I personally don't believe that a projectile can magically achieve any kind of supernatural drag reduction that would cause it to fly with a much higher BC than other similarly shaped bullets.
I have no problem with that whatsoever. If you have never seen it or experianced it I wouldnt expect you to. I know you have a healthy amount of experiance in exterior ballistics. Can you tell me you have never seen anything bizzare? Not neccesarily what we are discussing here but bizzare none the less?

My concern was when (on a windless day) I can lay in the same spot and shoot my 308 winnie (a solid .25 MOA rifle) with the same bullet at a side by side target as my 300 RUM (another solid .25 MOA rifle) target and get a G5 .318 BC with one and a G7 .495 with the other using the exact same bullet. I know what youre saying about using drops to calculate BC's (this is why I currently use the 2 chronograph method between 15 feet and 300 yards) but when I am not touching the knob and using a proven 2 MOA reticle x 3 bars and the groups are concistently falling on center, to me that is a fair degree of conclusion. Its the day to day concistency that gave me more conclusion. Like I said. It was what it was. Whether I believe in supernatural ballistics or not. For the record I do not believe in superantural ballistics, just when the sum of all parts work in perfect harmony non typical things can happen.
__________________
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

Last edited by Michael Eichele; 01-02-2009 at 01:44 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-02-2009, 02:28 AM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

Please understand my posts here are in no way intended to argue with you. I would love to know if I was doing some function wrong and what that was. I was never been able to figure that out then or now. Was it a mathematical error of sorts or just some bizzare results? I may never know as I no longer use that barrel.
__________________
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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  #13  
Old 01-02-2009, 09:54 AM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

Micheal,
I don't take your posts as argumentative at all. I know you're a knowledgeable shooter yourself and take your (and others) observations seriously. I'm here to learn just like everyone else.
Can you tell me about the particular barrel; was is a thick heavy bull barrel or a thin sporter barrel?

I'll tell you the one I'd really like to get to the bottom of is the phenomena where rifles group smaller in MOA at longer range than short. I've never directly observed this myself, however I did have a 7mm Rem Mag Sendero that 'seemed' to group ~0.75" at 100 yards and ~1.00" at 200, but of course the only way to know for sure if the groups actually 'converges' is to shoot thru two targets at once. There's just too much anecdotal evidence on this one to ignore it and I can't figure it out. My current hypothesis is parallax. Scopes that are properly adjusted for parallax at 200 yards will have some aiming error at 100 yards if they're not properly adjusted. I can't find anything physical to explain how a group of shots would converge in from all sides as range increases.

There are some unexplained things that happen, but rather than conclude that something unnatural is actually happening, I choose to accept that I simply don't know enough yet to explain everything and keep an open mind in search of the answers.

Take care,
-Bryan
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Bryan Litz
Ballistician

Author of: Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting
And: Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting

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  #14  
Old 01-02-2009, 12:49 PM
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Re: Have any of you seen "magic" like this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl135 View Post
Micheal,
I don't take your posts as argumentative at all. I know you're a knowledgeable shooter yourself and take your (and others) observations seriously. I'm here to learn just like everyone else.
Can you tell me about the particular barrel; was is a thick heavy bull barrel or a thin sporter barrel?

I'll tell you the one I'd really like to get to the bottom of is the phenomena where rifles group smaller in MOA at longer range than short. I've never directly observed this myself, however I did have a 7mm Rem Mag Sendero that 'seemed' to group ~0.75" at 100 yards and ~1.00" at 200, but of course the only way to know for sure if the groups actually 'converges' is to shoot thru two targets at once. There's just too much anecdotal evidence on this one to ignore it and I can't figure it out. My current hypothesis is parallax. Scopes that are properly adjusted for parallax at 200 yards will have some aiming error at 100 yards if they're not properly adjusted. I can't find anything physical to explain how a group of shots would converge in from all sides as range increases.

There are some unexplained things that happen, but rather than conclude that something unnatural is actually happening, I choose to accept that I simply don't know enough yet to explain everything and keep an open mind in search of the answers.

Take care,
-Bryan
Bryan,

The barrel was a 27.25 Lilja, 12x heavy varmint contour. .333 tight neck 300 RUM.

I know what youre saying about tighter MOA's at longer ranges. I had one load that was not only tighter MOA but smaller in inches at longer ranges. It was shooting concistent 1 MOA groups out to 600 yards and sub 0.5 MOA at 1K. In other words I was getting 6" at 600 yards and under 5" to 5" at 1K????????????????????????????????????????????????

I had an ex military sniper instructor explain it to me once. I am running late and have to jam, but will entertain his thoughts when I get home tonite. I am not saying he is right, but he made alot of sense.
__________________
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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