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(HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

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  #50  
Unread 01-30-2010, 04:44 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Greyghostt,

Great post. Now we are getting some where.

Roy

  #51  
Unread 01-30-2010, 04:58 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Bryan,

Thanks for your posts. The folks at Berger Bullets have always been very open and transparent about any claims they have made and I appreciate all the hard work you do for our sport. I wish others in the industry were as honest and open about testing and how results were obtained.

Tom
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Last edited by roaddog1m; 01-30-2010 at 09:36 PM.
  #52  
Unread 01-30-2010, 04:59 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

GG:
Quote:
Anyway, today we verified the 400 yard zero and then shot out to 928 on a vertical drop board. Todays results gave the same performance as the mid range testing back in December.
I would like to point out that the conditions you claim for your testing today are exactly the same as the conditions that James claim existed last year when James first posted the performance data.

I documented the conditions and the claimed performance data that was reported last year in this document

82% humidity, 29.84 inHg, 69.6 degrees F. I don't know where you are, but it's about 15 degrees F where I am today. Either you're fortunate enough to do your testing in an unchanging environment (down to the .01 inHg and .1 degree) or you're recycling the old BS performance claims, or it's an incredible coincidence that every detail of the previous test was repeated today.

Len, I completely understand and agree with your position about encouraging innovation. It's unfortunate that your judgment was called into question over this. The whole nature of this conflict is unfortunate because the HATs bullets may actually be very good bullets and some will never give them a try because of these threads and that is a shame. I (and I think others) don't have a problem with the bullets, but the claims that are repeatedly made about them are simply outlandish, misleading and unsupportable and that's the only problem IMO. It's also unfair to other bullet makers who do their best to report honest values or no values at all.

-Bryan
  #53  
Unread 01-30-2010, 05:21 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by royinidaho View Post
Greyghostt,

Great post. Now we are getting some where.

Roy
+1

I am grateful LV is no longer a spokes person for HAT. I think he is why nobody will give GG a chance.

Mr Len Backus,

As most know, there is always a flip side to every story. I appreciate your candid points in showing us the other side of the coin. I have tried to stay out of most of the HAT threads with the exception to trying to alieviate some tension with some humor or jokes which in reality probably doesnt help. I have been watching these threads with an open mind and an objective stand. Most here dont question your motives or integrity and it is sad that some respected member(s) brought that up and questioned it.

To everybody else, the only way to know for sure is to try them. In reality load development is a potential crap shoot with EVERY other bullet on the market anyway. Every barrel is different. You can spend lots of dollars on MANY brands, weights and styles to find one or two your rifle really excells with. That is the cost of shooting plain and simple. You will loose barrel life and money testing ANY bullet. Also it works out best to find the real BC be it double chronies or a drop test. HAT bullets are no different in this regard than any mainstream bullets. When Sierra says the 338 300 grain has a BC of .768 and then you find it to be a bit higher or lower nobody condems them as it is 'part of the ritual' so to speak of finding precision accuracy. If you cant afford to pay then dont play. Barrel life of lack there of is part of the game. If youre that concerned about barrel life then it is time for a different caliber. Dont use that as an excuse to condem HAT as they are not responsible for your caliber choice(s). Most develop loads for their barrel burners and then leave them alone shooting only a few bullets a year to save the barrel. If you have done this and youre happy with what you have then why try something new? Wait till you have a new barrel or a rifle of a different caliber to try them or suck it up and try them. What is the worst that can happen? You burn your barrel out only to find a very inovative bullet that works well for you? He!! that is worth the cost of a new barrel right there. If they are nothing special then it is still worth it to me to know to never waste my time, money and barrel life on them again. It is kind of like the old saying "If you loan somebody $20.00 and you never see that person again, it was worth it." Nobody makes this many waves about the 177 grain 30 cal GS bullet advertised at over .620 That seems like it is too good to be true right? But when shooters here see reports of other members trying them everybody eagerly awaits the results yet the only thing anybody eagerly awaits for with HAT threads is an opprotunity to bash them. With LV's history it is easy to see why. Now that he has been silenced, lets put all the tension and BS to bed and start over with an objective un-bias view.

Personally, I am going to order some HATs and give them a try. Worst case is I learn my lesson. That said, it will be money well spent. Best case is I find a 180 grain 308 bullet with a really good BC that shoots great for me. That too will be money well spent.

M
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Last edited by Michael Eichele; 01-30-2010 at 05:29 PM.
  #54  
Unread 01-30-2010, 05:36 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog1m View Post
.....have always been very open and transparent about any claims they have made...

Tom, that's what it's all about to me... being open and transparent.
  #55  
Unread 01-30-2010, 05:39 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl135 View Post
GG:


I would like to point out that the conditions you claim for your testing today are exactly the same as the conditions that James claim existed last year when James first posted the performance data.

I documented the conditions and the claimed performance data that was reported last year in this document

82% humidity, 29.84 inHg, 69.6 degrees F. I don't know where you are, but it's about 15 degrees F where I am today. Either you're fortunate enough to do your testing in an unchanging environment (down to the .01 inHg and .1 degree) or you're recycling the old BS performance claims, or it's an incredible coincidence that every detail of the previous test was repeated today.

Len, I completely understand and agree with your position about encouraging innovation. It's unfortunate that your judgment was called into question over this. The whole nature of this conflict is unfortunate because the HATs bullets may actually be very good bullets and some will never give them a try because of these threads and that is a shame. I (and I think others) don't have a problem with the bullets, but the claims that are repeatedly made about them are simply outlandish, misleading and unsupportable and that's the only problem IMO. It's also unfair to other bullet makers who do their best to report honest values or no values at all.

-Bryan
The real procedure is the same..
And no i still do not want to hire you for a ballistician.

YOU showed you lack of detail in your earlier post and i quote( i didnot work up a accurate load)..

Well sir a accurate load is essential for doing correct drop for bc's.
All companies that use declining velocity shoot hundreds of rounds that you didnot have..
According to you all the longrange animals that were shot with the hats using our bc's were misses.

You might want to check your equiment since Eddybo has hit his intended targets..

And on a nother note i am still not going to pay you for the modeling you did that i didnot request.

But any day you want to come out to the range and prove your verbose claims bring it on!!!!!!!!! (We put the large flat end on the HAT in the case first)

The question i thought was how we derived the bc's not the actual rum shooting conditions .
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  #56  
Unread 01-30-2010, 06:08 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREYGHOSTt View Post
is this sufficient for ya. LV didnt respond because he has been removed from posting,,


Anyway, today we verified the 400 yard zero and then shot out to 928 on a vertical drop board. Todays results gave the same performance as the mid range testing back in December. Below is the range conditions and pertinant data. If someone could run these numbers and let us know what the results are, I would appreciate it.

338 Lapua Improved (My 1995 design with the 30 Snyper brass from Bell Labs)

1-10" twist

400 yd zero

265 gr

3245 fps at muzzle

2.13" sight height

69.6 degrees F

82% humidity

82' above sea level

29.84"Hg

calm winds... Impact points were about 1.5" to the left of the aiming point. This is well inside one click on the Nightforce 12-42 NXS scope.

At 928 yards the holes were -10.3 to -10.5 moa below the aiming point.

All the shots today were cold bore shots and they were about 10-15 minutes apart. We let the barrel cool while we went down to the target board and marked the holes. Group size was 3.5". We let the barrel cool while we went down to the target board and marked the holes.

Tomorrow the expansion tests will be performed at 928 on some phone books and newspaper I have been collecting for about 4 months.... This should not be a problem since the gun was grouping 3.5" at the 928 yard target board.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Mr Henderson,

LV did respond to another member after I made my first inquiry with him so it appears to me that he did ignore my question before his membership was terminated. But that's past, so let's move on.

For those of you LR shooters who aren't interested in BC, you can ignore and disregard the following. It wont interest you.

Thanks for replying and providing the data but I have to be honest and say it appears to be very questionable to me. But at least you did reply. Anyway... when I ran the numbers I came up with a BC of 1.3 Maybe I did something wrong so if someone lese could check the numbers I would aprreciate it. That seems like a very high BC for that weight and shape of bullet. It also seems odd if not incredible that your enviromental data for last year is exactly the same as today. From an email I received from Huston this morning, it was in the 30's there. If you care to tell us your location, those enviromanteal conditions can be confirmed on weather.com

So sitting in my chair, and crunching the numbers you provided I come up with a 1.3 BC vs the .649 BC that Bryan litz came up with. That's a huge differenc and maybe my number crunching was off. But how is that reconiled? I have to put more weight in Bryan's findings for several reasons. First is, that his work IS well known and consistant, he has published his methods and his data for public scrutiny, and has been already mentioned, he and Berger have displayed the highest level of transparency, openess and integrity. They even did an exhaustive testing of their bullets and actually lowered their BC's, in many cases below what their competitors were claiming for same weight/cal bullet. How often do you see that in industry? So let me repeat, his method's and data are PUBLISHED for open and public scrutiny. If he says your bullets have a BC of .649, that carries a lot of weight with me. And we all know that there are a lot of things that affect BC, but I expect Bryan's finding are very close to actual.

I have nothing against you or your bullets and wish they were everything they are claimed to be because that would only be good for me as a LR shooter. But at this point I would like to see some more transparency and independent verifcation.

Thank you,

Mark
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