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(HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

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  #43  
Unread 01-30-2010, 02:05 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Just curious if the guarantee includes that you will get The Same Drops as reported by LV ?
If it does, then I would agree that they would probably be worth a try!

edge.
Yes it does we didn't spend months and months testing and countless dollars just to post ficticious bc's .
Lotts of (blood mostly mine)( sweat mostly LV's)(my shop has ac) and (tears mostly mine when u break something a punch or die )(and a few not nice words all mine ) went into developing these things and countless hours of loading technique to get the results we do.
Not to mention hours on the range and hunting for expansion tests..
Making these tri metal bullets was a great challange then finding out what makes them fly the best was next.ie the loading guide.
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  #44  
Unread 01-30-2010, 02:12 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Len,

First I want to say that some of the things said on this site about your business motivation where very unfortunate to be aired publicly. If any member had any concern he should have gone to you in private. I for one think this is a great site and I have learned almost everything I know about LR, and much about guns and shooting in general here and continue to learn.

Back to the subject. LV made some pretty tall claims in the opening post and I asked him a simple question...

Quote:
Interesting report James,

Can you provide pics and some dimensions? OAL of bullet, length of nose and length of tail and required twist?

Thanks,

Mark
I was ignored, so I pursued him a little hotter. I beleive his claims were greatly exagerated and amounted to false advertising. and as far as I'm concerned he represents, or at least used to represent HAT bullets. LV went after another bullet maker (who is not a sponser here) mercilessly in more than one thread on the same subject of BC. So IMO, he shouldn't be surprised to get some tough scrutiny.

Also IMO, when LV talks about bullets it's the same as GG talking. He represented HAT's here. So any claim that that LV made, GG approved and if he didn't he should have said so.

BC is everything in the LR world and if you make claims that your bullet has a higher BC and will go faster than another bullet it gets a lot of attention and people buy them. As far as I'm concerned, the money back guarantee is meaningless. If someone buys 50-100 bullets for load development, how many are going to be left over to send back? And then there's all the time, effort and resource spent chasing a wild goose not to mention barrel life which is precious on some of the higher caliber custum rifles that go for $3000 or more.

Anyone who makes claims in these forums should stand up to the scrutiny. Everyone feels the heat in here and that's good because it keeps us honest. Kirby, Shawn, Nate, Paul (Wildcat Bullets) and a lot of others feel the heat. Sometimes it excessive but that is usually seen for what it is.

In these forums, where BC is everything, if someone is going to make claim about BC they should provide some data or get some testing done.

-Mark
  #45  
Unread 01-30-2010, 02:16 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREYGHOSTt View Post
Yes it does we didn't spend months and months testing and countless dollars just to post ficticious bc's .
Can you provide the data for this testing?
  #46  
Unread 01-30-2010, 03:39 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl135 View Post
The reason James (LightVarmint) wants to address individuals via email is so that his bogus claims aren't subject to public scrutiny. For those who aren't familiar with this individual, he was on here last year boasting the same inflated claims for the same bullet. Last time he posted trajectory data for this bullet which implied a BC over 1.0. I see he's reduced the claim to .9 which is still not true for this bullet.

How do I know it's not true? Because I tested it myself. I became so frustrated with these misleading claims that I purchased 50 samples of the .338 cal 265 grain HATS bullets from a forum member (the manufacturer wouldn't sell me any). I tested these bullets using the same equipment and procedure that I used to test all of the bullets in my book, and all of Berger's BCs. The method is published in my book, and is repeatable to within +/-1%. Using that measurement procedure, I've found that the .338 caliber 265 grain HATS bullet has a measured G1 BC of .649 (average from 3000 fps to 1500 fps) and a G7 BC of .332 (valid for all speeds). That BC implies a form factor that's right in line with other bullets in it's class, and therefore, a BC that's reasonable for a bullet of that weight and caliber. The claimed BC of .9 implies a form factor that's lower than any other bullet in it's class by 30% which is impossible for a 265 grain bullet that's stable in a 1:10" twist.

I didn't do any load development to see how small I could group these bullets, but after seeing how terribly inflated the BC claims were, I concluded that these precision claims are likely bogus as well. "Averaging in the .1's with a .338 caliber factory rifle"? Who do you think you're kidding? Benchrest shooters who dedicate their lives to shooting small groups are lucky to average groups that small with dedicated custom 6PPC rifles.

Many of us try very hard to provide accurate and useful information to shooters and it's incredibly frustrating to see people intentionally misleading and undoing that work for their own benefit. My claims aren't baseless. I spent the money and time testing these bullets and the above measured BC's are what I found. Sharing these results is my contribution to this thread. In the spirit of public peer review, you (prospective HATS customers) can take in what's being said and make your decisions. The claims made for these bullets are simply unsupportable and I'm doing what I can to prevent well meaning shooters from spending their hard earned money only to be disappointed. False advertising leads to disappointed shooters and that doesn't do the shooting sports any good.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I do work for Berger bullets. My message is not intended to steer everyone away from 'all other' bullets. But when inflated and unsupportable claims are made, I'm compelled to offer my analysis.

-Bryan
Thanks Bryan! I had some very serious doubts when I read these claims so I'm glad that you took the time to check it out. Would you be interested in checking a few of mine for grins? ........Rich
  #47  
Unread 01-30-2010, 04:02 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Mr Henson, if you get your 7mm HATs ready for sale by June then that will give me enough time to get them tested for max load in my rifle and then I will take some to Wyoming with me and shot them at a mile or more. I probably have the fastest 7AM on the forum and can spin the Wildcat bullets into vapors before top end is reached.

I do not need a money back guarantee. I have dozens of partial boxes of bullets that I only tested 5-10 and found them unsuitable for me.

I also have an 8 twist 257 Wby if you should have some of those ready for sale. That rifle is not really very accurate being as it is a falling block but I manage to kill stuff at 1K with the Wildcat bullets and can run a few rounds of your bullets down the barrel also.

I do not need any BC guarantees. As Len mentioned, those of us who actually shoot at long range pretty much come to understand that a bullet lands where it lands and nobody's guarantee is going to make it land any different.

And I will acknowledge that you have done us all a good deed in attempting to make a super high BC bullet. It seems to me you have had to solve some fierce problems. Perseverance in the face of adversity is something I admire in people. I should, being as I am stubborn enough myself.

If you will simply announce in the forum when they are ready for sale, I will buy some. This is not any offer to be a tester, it is just my curiosity as to the bullets ultra long range performance.
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  #48  
Unread 01-30-2010, 04:10 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post
Mr Henson,

If you will simply announce in the forum when they are ready for sale, I will buy some. This is not any offer to be a tester, it is just my curiosity as to the bullets ultra long range performance.
Will do thank you sir,,
rg...
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  #49  
Unread 01-30-2010, 04:19 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: N.GA
Posts: 139
Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Len,

First I want to say that some of the things said on this site about your business motivation where very unfortunate to be aired publicly. If any member had any concern he should have gone to you in private. I for one think this is a great site and I have learned almost everything I know about LR, and much about guns and shooting in general here and continue to learn.

Back to the subject. LV made some pretty tall claims in the opening post and I asked him a simple question...



I was ignored, so I pursued him a little hotter. I beleive his claims were greatly exagerated and amounted to false advertising. and as far as I'm concerned he represents, or at least used to represent HAT bullets. LV went after another bullet maker (who is not a sponser here) mercilessly in more than one thread on the same subject of BC. So IMO, he shouldn't be surprised to get some tough scrutiny.

Also IMO, when LV talks about bullets it's the same as GG talking. He represented HAT's here. So any claim that that LV made, GG approved and if he didn't he should have said so.

BC is everything in the LR world and if you make claims that your bullet has a higher BC and will go faster than another bullet it gets a lot of attention and people buy them. As far as I'm concerned, the money back guarantee is meaningless. If someone buys 50-100 bullets for load development, how many are going to be left over to send back? And then there's all the time, effort and resource spent chasing a wild goose not to mention barrel life which is precious on some of the higher caliber custum rifles that go for $3000 or more.

Anyone who makes claims in these forums should stand up to the scrutiny. Everyone feels the heat in here and that's good because it keeps us honest. Kirby, Shawn, Nate, Paul (Wildcat Bullets) and a lot of others feel the heat. Sometimes it excessive but that is usually seen for what it is.

In these forums, where BC is everything, if someone is going to make claim about BC they should provide some data or get some testing done.

-Mark
is this sufficient for ya. LV didnt respond because he has been removed from posting,,


Anyway, today we verified the 400 yard zero and then shot out to 928 on a vertical drop board. Todays results gave the same performance as the mid range testing back in December. Below is the range conditions and pertinant data. If someone could run these numbers and let us know what the results are, I would appreciate it.

338 Lapua Improved (My 1995 design with the 30 Snyper brass from Bell Labs)

1-10" twist

400 yd zero

265 gr

3245 fps at muzzle

2.13" sight height

69.6 degrees F

82% humidity

82' above sea level

29.84"Hg

calm winds... Impact points were about 1.5" to the left of the aiming point. This is well inside one click on the Nightforce 12-42 NXS scope.

At 928 yards the holes were -10.3 to -10.5 moa below the aiming point.

All the shots today were cold bore shots and they were about 10-15 minutes apart. We let the barrel cool while we went down to the target board and marked the holes. Group size was 3.5". We let the barrel cool while we went down to the target board and marked the holes.

Tomorrow the expansion tests will be performed at 928 on some phone books and newspaper I have been collecting for about 4 months.... This should not be a problem since the gun was grouping 3.5" at the 928 yard target board.
Thanks in advance for the help.
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