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(HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

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  #71  
Unread 01-30-2010, 10:27 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

noel, I agree with you that this thread isnt devoid of facts. I just meant it doesnt neccesarily meen that all the facts are present.
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Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

  #72  
Unread 01-30-2010, 10:31 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Michael,

Then we are in complete agreement.

Best,
Noel
  #73  
Unread 01-30-2010, 10:55 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Eichele View Post
Instead of choosing a side (Bryan's or GG's) why dont you all just try them. GG has offered to give you your money back if youre not happy with them and you can be on your own side. If youre not willing to give them a try why contribute to the bashing? Shoot them first, then bash. Nobody here has asked Bryan to get third party testing to prove his BC numbers. Why? Because we buy Berger bullets and we find the BC's to be very close if not spot on. Of the shooters who have used HATs, how many have claimed that HATs are bogus bullets that are not worth the lead that is in them? They made a choice to buy them, try them and so far have had some measure of success with them. If you dont have the b@!!s to try them and offer an educated and valid opinion then shut the he!! up and hold your peace.

It would be really sad if Bryan was spot on with his BC and GG was spot on with the drop values due to some other unknown variable. If that was the case, they would both in a sense be right. Granted, if they had a given BC and drops that didnt corrospond that would lead to other issues but that is not the point here. The point here is that we are running GG down with NO proof of our own to back it up. We are all taking Bryan's figures as concrete evidence that GG is phony and has no credibility when none of us have all the facts. Bryan admitted he shot them using TOF insturments and never shot them for drops. He may be qualified to offer a BC figure but cannot be qualified for offering drop values. Drop values are very predictable using accurate BCs. That is using KNOWN variables such as jacketed lead be it hollow point or soft point. Has anybody ever tested a 338 or 308 caliber bullet with a large portion of aluminum in the nose? Who is to say that the aluminum doesnt offer another variable that affects or alters the way the bullet flies that we have not yet predicted or discovered? Bryan's BC is probably very close to what he claims. That doesnt meen that is all there is to it especially with materials that are not typical.

if it comes out that the HATs drop as advertised regardless of the BC, GG's name is still mud around here and that is sad. Who is going to have the b@!!s to offer an appology if that turnes out to be the case? Most likely not very many. If we cannot give GG the benefit of the doubt and declare him guilty before proven inoccent than who would have the charecter to appologize for running him down?

All the bashing and finger pointing in this thread brings nothing positive to this site. Try them or leave the mud and flame out of your posts.
Michael, you're a solid contributor to this forum and I respect your opinion. Don't take anything I say as a flame because it's not intended to be.

First, I haven't bashed anyone and done everything I can to keep this business and non-personal including no jokes although I did smile at a couple. My attitude about this is very matter-of-fact and unemotional although it might be misinteprted on an internet forum. This isn't about life and death or anything close. My interest in this is peaked by the fact that LV badgered Gerard Schultz to no end about his GS bullets and as I said earlier, LV represents GG so they are the same in my eyes. In that light I dont see why LV or GG should be surprised or upset about scrutiny of their bullets if they are critical of other bullet makers.

Next, LV and GG bring this on themselves. They get defensive and abrasive when quetioned about their claims and when anyone makes these kinds of claims they should be prepared for some skepticism and a lot of questions. And why shouldn't questions be asked? And then there are statements like this...

Quote:
PS bryan you are spending way too much time on longrange hunting you should be at berger
getting those 338 berger bullets out the door. So we can test them against the hats on video with lotts of witness...........
I think GG will regret that statement. I hope he already does.

I must have missed this....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Eichele
Nobody makes this many waves about the 177 grain 30 cal GS bullet advertised at over .620 That seems like it is too good to be true right?
This is a totally differnet deal. Gerard Schultz did not come into these forums and make claims about his bullets. Members, including myself asked questions and made speculations about his bullets. He joined a couple of those threads and answered questions about his bullets, including saying that his bullets BCs were based soley on calculations and not tested. LV, joined in and hounded him in those threads. As Jon already mentioned, the GS claimed BC's may be overly optimistic but are not completely out to lunch. my personal opinion about the 177 is that it is probably very close to what is published based on it's comparison to others of similar size and shape. But that's a whole different topic.

Finally, I dont feel I should refrain from questioning or commenting on something just because I haven't bought and tried it. I simply dont have the resources to try something just to try it. I expect a munufacturer to provide some reasonable assurance of performance so I can make a decision and go from there. If you or others want to do that kind of experimenting, then by all means go ahead and if you could share your results, that would be great. That IS what this site is all about. I'm not anyone's "side". I'm interested in LRH and how best to do it. And if someone makes big claims relating to that, they can probably expecrt some questions from me and if their answers are good, I'll probably buy their product and give it a go.

I'm sure Len is reading this so I have a comment. I know this site is a business and I completely respect and accept that. One thing about heavily sponsered sites like this that open and honest criticism can get a little touchy and cause a conflict of interest. I hope that doesn't happen in this site because one of it''s strengths is you get the real down to earth experiences and opinions in these threads and when that stops, this site is on it's way out. I stopped reading Field & Stream and Outddor Life many many years ago because it became apparent to me that their "objective" articles on things were really just marketing.

I've said my piece here and am all for moving on if we can do that. Again, this is nothing personal, but when someone says...

Quote:
Crunching the numbers (using the most conservative BC of .900) and comparing it to known velocities for the 300 Sierra Match King out of several of the same model rifles:

The 338 RUM with your bullets travels 235 fps faster and delivers 490 ft-lbs more energy at 1000 yards with 53.09" less drop. It really makes it a forgiving factory package when long range hunting under less than desirable conditions when shots can come faster than you would like. Remember that we know the BC is always higher than .900 so the down-range performance will be more impressive.... FWIW, I prefer to use the conservative BC values to minimize/eliminate any possible consternation from the unwashed masses.
... yoiu can probably guess I'll bite.

Best,

Mark

Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 01-30-2010 at 11:06 PM.
  #74  
Unread 01-30-2010, 11:08 PM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

No problem Mark. No flame taken and no flame was meant towards you either. You are also well respected here.

M
__________________
__________________
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
  #75  
Unread 01-31-2010, 12:45 AM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by noel carlson View Post
GG has actually proposed a very effective way to put this one to bed. If he is serious about a joint demonstration, I am in.

We could include some impact testing while we are at it.

GG,

I will coordinate the logistics on my side, and inform you of the details.
This should be good.
  #76  
Unread 01-31-2010, 02:14 AM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

This thread's turned into a sorry example and excuse of a 'righteous' effort to improve the quality of this Forum or business practices in general.

There's only one GG I've ever known on this Forum and that was 'goodgrouper'. Hope he comes back. Hard enough to follow all the whining going on here without having to guess who GG is. The manufacterer of the HAT's will be identified as Mr. Henson in this Post.

Time for some of the members to swallow their pride and stop crowing like roosters. Mr. Henson doesn't owe anyone here a BC any more than Richard owed anyone a BC for his custom Wildcat bullets. You don't wanna buy Mr. Henson's HATs without a BC proven to your satisfaction then don't buy'em. If Mr. Henson feels he needs to provide a BC then I suspect he will - when he's good and ready. Richard never saw the need. I don't pretend to speak for him, but Mr. Henson may never feel the need either, no matter how much muscle and pressure is applied in this Forum.

Bryan - In response to your counter-interrogation of Mr. Henson I will say I fully believe it's possible for a gun that's shooting poor groups to provide a longer 'time in flight' derived BC than a rifle with a different barrel that shoots the bullets lights out. Take it to the extreme of bullets tumbling end over end and the "cause and effect" cannot be denied. You or anyone else can hypothesize to what extent different barrels, twist rates, rifling styles, bore diameters, etc. might affect a bullet's BC until the sun sets. How could one know the poor groups weren't being caused by bullets that weren't gyroscopically stable. You wanna argue about whether it's a 0.25% difference or a 2.5% difference, it won't matter because we're talking about a "cause and effect" factor than no one has the time, equipment, or money to quantify with absolute accuracy or precision. My point is there's an excessive amount of tit-for-tat being generated here in the frontal assault. When Berger bullets was first marketing bullets did you insist that they generate and provide BCs using the same methods you now promote? Do you really expect every innovative custom bullet manufacturer to incur the time, energy, and financial resources to BC development preferentially to bullet accuracy testing, production, and sales? Is this what Berger did? If not, maybe it's time to lighten up, in light of the fact that you do have a financial interest with Berger bullets. Tit-for-tat. If you're gonna go there you're gonna get it. There's a higher ground here for all involved.

I recall LV and Mr. Henson repeatedly stating they are not providing BCs. Same thing Richard said. Same old complaints. No different than Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. Another day of the same old riff-raff. The turntable 33 or 45 skipping over and over again. Accept the drop data, reject the drop data, question the drop data. Do with it as you please. But don't delude yourself into the belief you have some right to demand BC development from a small custom bullet manufacturer for each bullet manufactured.

The Forum members that demand a BC? Didn't Bryan Litz just provide his BC determination? Isn't this the same Bryan Litz that authored and marketed a book on Ballistics? What more do you need? The members beating the Bryan Litz drum - you believe Bryan and therefore you've now got your Bryan BC - end of story. Not satisfied with the Bryan Litz BC then move on to another bullet. Or does crowing like a rooster warm the heart?

My first hand experience with Mr. Henson: I purchased some 180 grain HATs for my 300 Win Mag. I couldn't get the accuracy I required for LRHunting in my completely custom rifle. I didn't begin a thread on LRH and throw a tissy. Just figured my barrel didn't lik'em. Then 4 months later I coincidentally PM'd LightVarmint and discussed my experience. He said these HATs had shot well in virtually all other rifles tested with 1:10 or faster twist barrels. LV asked me about my twist rate. I told him it was a 1:10. Asked if I'd verified 1:10 twist by measurement. No, I hadn't. So now Lightvarmint's got me wondering. I measure a 1:10.55" twist by rotating my cleaning rod through two complete revolutions and halving the total distance travelled. Next I measure every other barrel in my arsenal to determine if I am able to accurately determine twist rate. All my other barrel's are basically measured dead nuts on with their 'represented' twist rates. Now I check with my smith, who checks his records and confirms he ordered and was invoiced for a 10-twist barrel. This was a custom button-rifled barrel and I'm told that twist rates on button-rifled barrels are sometime off a bit in one direction or the other. I'm thinking a button-rifled custom barrel maker who's been in the business for more than 20 years ought be able to rifle a barrel with a precision better than 5% error - but it is what it is. I didn't begin a thread on LRH and throw a tissy. I get back to Lightvarmint and tell him I've got a 1:10.5 twist and he says that's a bummer for sure. Confirms that I would need a twist rate of no slower than 1:10 based on their tests to date. Suggest that I check with Mr. Henson. I had no other faster twist 30 caliber rifle but I did have a 10 twist 338 Edge. So I check with Mr. Henson and he offers to exchange my remaining 180 gr HATs for some .338 265 grain HATs. Never expected that since Mr. Henson was blameless. Anyhow, Lightvarmint, Mr. Henson, and Richard always treated me fair and square.

Person goes looking for a fight, it's pretty easy to find. Try to force another person to do something for your personal benefit against their inclination? Good luck. So good luck to all Forum members on a mission to force Mr. Henson to incur the costs of providing a BC for your benefit. Crow crow crow. Whine whine whine. I wouldn't blame him if he said up yours.

Last edited by phorwath; 01-31-2010 at 03:15 AM.
  #77  
Unread 01-31-2010, 03:12 AM
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Re: (HAT) Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet 338 Rum Test

Paul,

I appreciate that you believe all the "crowing" is gratuitous. If it was simply a matter of forcing someone to bear an expense, which they were unwilling to add to the price of their product, I would tend to side with your assessment.

In this particular case, Mr. Henson invited a field test. The "conservative BC" which is being supplied to the "unwashened masses" need not remain speculative. I will provide details later, but if the HAT 338 stabilizes, objective third party certification of the empirical BC, with a high degree of precision, will be the outcome... at no cost to Mr. Henson, and a cost benefit to potential buyers.

I will run my product through the same instrumentation, at the same time, for the same reasons.

There is no downside to this arrangement.
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