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Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

 
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2005, 06:28 AM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

[ QUOTE ]
now don’t get me started on cryo treatment and why barrels and any other part of a firearm should be treated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inquiring minds want to know. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2005, 10:23 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 109
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

Cryo treatment is off the subject but I will try to get parts of a study released, it covers the effects of the treatment on different materials as to machine ability, durability, using it as a harding and tempering treatment and some other factors I can’t recall, also as to the processes involved in treatment which were found to be extremely important, if it is released to me we can start another thread for discussion. I have already requested release on parts of the molly report as it pertains to small cal. weapons.
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2005, 06:23 AM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

In short, I got the Moly coated Lost river bullets to shoot well without any pressure issues whatsoever!

Does anyone have any .308 caliber ones they would like to get rid of?

I suspect moly will work with the Barnes as well.

Thanks in advance.

James
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  #18  
Old 04-28-2005, 08:42 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 138
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets


Here is a good read.

The Latest (perhaps the last) On Moly

We have all seen the claims by those selling moly coated bullets and you may have heard horror stories shooters who tried them. To a varying extent most of the positive claims are true for some shooting applications. The horror stories about corrosion and wrecked barrels are also true.

Bench rest shooters are usually the first to adapt new technology and the first to discard things that do not work. A few years ago some benchrest shooters where shooting moly bullets. This season there are virtually no competitive bench rest shooters shooting moly bullets (although a few may still be adding moly to their powder). This does not mean moly bullets have no valid applications...just that the benefits are not applicable to all forms of shooting.

Increased Accuracy
An early claim regarding moly coated bullets is increased accuracy. It was surmised that less bore friction would reduce tearing of "fins" on the bullet's base producing less turbulence in flight. To our knowledge this claim has never been substantiated. Even if true, reduced turbulence will only be evident at extreme long ranges. We expect the improved accuracy some shooters see are due to other factors.

Moly Will Change Your Loads
Switching to moly will change your load performance. Velocity and pressures should decrease when switching to moly coated bullets. This is not bad if you have a chronograph or the time to work up new loads. Because bullet to barrel friction is drastically reduced you can often push bullets faster and still stay within safe pressure limits. Normal loads that crater, flatten or puncture primers may not when shooting moly bullets. The increased velocity that might be achieved with moly coated bullets is often sufficient to reach a higher velocity "sweet spot" where groups will tighten again, or allow you to fire heavier bullets at acceptable velocities.

Note: The bearing surface of a bullet increases exponentially with bore diameter. Generally the larger the caliber, the greater the difference in acheived velocity for a given powder charge. Smaller/lower pressure calibers often show only 10 to 20 fps velocity reduction while large magnum calibers may show 100 to 150 fps velocity reduction when switching to moly coated bullets.

This also may introduce another issue. As bore friction is reduced the bullet may accelerate down the bore as if it has lighter mass. This can result in secondary pressure spikes if the powder is too slow for the bullet's rate of acceleration.

Reduced Throat Erosion
It was originally claimed that throat erosion was reduced by using moly bullets. The jury is still out on this one...but most shooters tend to discount this claim. Throat erosion is primarily caused by hot gasses entering the throat behind the bullet, no doubt if the only difference is a moly coated bullet, throat erosion might be reduced because gas pressure and heat is reduced. But most shooters will add powder to regain the velocity lost when switching to moly. This should then produce similar pressure, heat and gas erosion of the throat.

As just one example of the bad information that has been disseminated about Moly, on page 231 of a popular book about long range accuracy the author states "The drop in pressure and velocity is NOT caused by a reduction in barrel friction as proposed by Norma and others. It is caused by the hot propellant gasses vaporizing the coating resulting in a cooling of about 400 degrees F." The author says he is "certain" about this because of "sophisticated internal ballistics code".

I understand the author's son is a chemist and that may have contributed to a "myopic" conclusion. If they had access to good pressure testing equipment we doubt they fully grasped the limitations of the mathematical algorithms used for the analysis or all of the issues affecting pressure. Increase pressure on a gas and it's temperature increases, reduce pressure in the chamber and the temperature will be lower. His own tests indicated pressures dropped from 54,000 psi to 47,000! This amount of pressure change can be produced with bare copper bullets by changing seating depth and/or neck tension in most calibers.

Supposed proof is when they introduced moly to powder without coating the bullet, pressures and velocities were still lower! Interestingly no one seems to be able to duplicate this experiment with a reasonable amount of moly (micro grains) and a cold clean uncontaminated barrel. Any detectable reduction in pressure is easily explained by the moly working as a slight burn rate deterrent as would be expected when any similar substance is used in sufficient quantity to coat powder granules.

Tests conducted with good instrumentation shows it is indeed moly's ability to reduce friction in the cartridge neck, throat and bore that reduces pressure. Norma was correct!

Less Copper Fouling
Perhaps the most legitimate claim about shooting moly is reduced copper fouling but even this claim cannot be universally applied. In quality barrels copper fouling is often minimal so switching to moly may offer little advantage, especially if you are not inclined to put large numbers of rounds through the barrel. This is what benchresters discovered. A good barrel will easily shoot 5 rounds without copper fouling. One characteristic of moly is that when starting with a cold clean bore it may take 10 to 20 shots for the bore to coat with moly so velocity stabilizes. This means benchresters where trying to shoot an entire match without cleaning. Benchresters simply concluded when firing a few rounds the introduction of another variable is a bigger disadvantage than the benefits of using moly coated bullets. If you shoot 50 to 100 rounds at a time and don't mind 10 fouling shots before velocities stabilize you might still consider using moly coated bullets.

Moly will build up in any barrel and is more difficult to remove (see below). If your barrel is prone to copper fouling, moly may help extend the number of shots before groups start opening up. However, if you can shoot 25 rounds of bare copper bullets without group sizes increasing there may not be a significant improvement by switching to moly. The bottom line is we have seen barrels that seemed to like moly, some where there was no appreciable difference and some that flat out did not seem to like the stuff.

Less Barrel Heating
I believe a primary benefit to shooting moly coated bullets is one rarely claimed by those selling moly products. In rough barrels that "walk" as they heat, moly seems to provide significant advantage when firing quick repetitive shots. I have a rifle chambered in .223 that is sensitive to heating even though it has a relatively thick production varmint barrel and has been well bedded. I used a thermometer to compare barrel heating and it took 14 moly coated rounds to heat the barrel to the same temperature as 5 copper jacketed rounds. The barrel does not copper foul more than most production barrels, but it is still rougher than I would like. In this rifle group sizes definitely benefit from moly.

Note: The bearing surface of a bullet increases exponentially with bore diameter. The larger the caliber the greater the friction reduction benfit. Smaller calibers often show only slightly less heating when shooting moly bullets. Smooth small caliber barrels may show no benefit at all. The above mentioned rifle has since been fire lapped so it no longer heats as badly. I compared heating again with bare and moly bullets and found only a 10 degree advantage after 15 shots of each...hardly enough to make a difference.

Cleaning Moly
Serious barrel damage can result from moly buildup (caking). All barrels will "cake" with moly but a barrel prone to copper fouling will collect more moly at fewer round intervals. Moly usually builds up "rings" at certain points in the bore. If the build up becomes sufficiently severe bullets fired through the restriction will expand the bore at these ring points. This is why some highpower shooters have wrecked barrels after more than 100 rounds.

A traditional measure of barrel smoothness and acceptable copper fouling is the ability to shoot at least 10 to 15 shots before a patch wet with Sweets turns green from jacket material embedded in the bore. If after a single shot there is indication of copper fouling, you should break in the barrel before shooting moly bullets. When copper fouling is minimal your bore should resist excessive moly caking but it will still need to be properly cleaned. MOLY IS NOT A WAY TO AVOID CLEANING YOUR RIFLE. (For more info. On the subject of copper fouling and shooting in barrels click here.)
I have tried several moly cleaning methods and settled on the one recommended by Walt Berger. Shooter's Choice, Hoppe's No. 9 or hot water and dishwasher detergent gel as some suggest simply does not work and may actually promote corrosion. Berger recommends using Kano Kroil penetrating oil and USP Bore Paste (similar to JB) at least every 80 to 100 shots (shorter intervals in guns prone to copper fouling). Their instructions are to run two patches wet with Kroil through the bore, a dry patch, a patch of USP Bore Paste, two patches of Kroil and a final dry patch. When running the bore paste through the bore they also suggest short 2 inch strokes. This method seems to clean caking out of the gun and smoothes the bore nicely without removing all the moly. You can purchase Kroil directly from the manufacturer at (615) 833-4101. USP's phone number is (412) 621-2130.

If you have a rifle that can shoot 25 rounds before is becomes copper fouled it may be easier to remove the copper with conventional solutions then trying to remove moly using the Berger prescribed method.

Corrosion
We have not seen any corrosion problems when using moly but we also do not store rifles without cleaning them thoroughly. There have been numerous reports of M1 shooters who failed to clean their gas tubes after shooting moly bullets only to discover nasty rust developing. If you shoot moly, make sure you clean every part of a semi auto's mechanism where powder and bore residue can collect. Most moly products do contain trace sulfides which can become acidic and promote corrosion in humid environs.

THE BOTTOM LINE
It is safe to discard most of the "hype" regarding extended barrel life, ease of cleaning, etc. and focus instead on performance. Nearly all competitive shooters have discarded Moly as a bad idea that introduced more variables then it eliminated. Copper is not difficult to remove with proper solvents and cleaning tools. If you see no substantial accuracy improvement with moly bullets then you may have no reason to use them.

On the other hand if you have a barrel that simply will not shoot well no matter what you try; or it "walks" badly as it heats, then moly coated bullets may be worth a try. Some rifles seem to prefer moly, others show no substantial difference. We have concluded there is a direct relationship between the quality of a barrel and the benefits accrued from using moly. Generally the better the barrel, the fewer benefits. Good barrels foul less, do not change shape as they heat and are easy to clean.

--------------------
LRD Out!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________________
Long Range Demon TacKac Out!
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  #19  
Old 04-28-2005, 11:23 AM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

[ QUOTE ]

Here is a good read.

The Latest (perhaps the last) On Moly

We have all seen the claims by those selling moly coated bullets and you may have heard horror stories shooters who tried them. To a varying extent most of the positive claims are true for some shooting applications. The horror stories about corrosion and wrecked barrels are also true.

Bench rest shooters are usually the first to adapt new technology and the first to discard things that do not work. A few years ago some benchrest shooters where shooting moly bullets. This season there are virtually no competitive bench rest shooters shooting moly bullets (although a few may still be adding moly to their powder). This does not mean moly bullets have no valid applications...just that the benefits are not applicable to all forms of shooting.

Increased Accuracy
An early claim regarding moly coated bullets is increased accuracy. It was surmised that less bore friction would reduce tearing of "fins" on the bullet's base producing less turbulence in flight. To our knowledge this claim has never been substantiated. Even if true, reduced turbulence will only be evident at extreme long ranges. We expect the improved accuracy some shooters see are due to other factors.

Moly Will Change Your Loads
Switching to moly will change your load performance. Velocity and pressures should decrease when switching to moly coated bullets. This is not bad if you have a chronograph or the time to work up new loads. Because bullet to barrel friction is drastically reduced you can often push bullets faster and still stay within safe pressure limits. Normal loads that crater, flatten or puncture primers may not when shooting moly bullets. The increased velocity that might be achieved with moly coated bullets is often sufficient to reach a higher velocity "sweet spot" where groups will tighten again, or allow you to fire heavier bullets at acceptable velocities.

Note: The bearing surface of a bullet increases exponentially with bore diameter. Generally the larger the caliber, the greater the difference in acheived velocity for a given powder charge. Smaller/lower pressure calibers often show only 10 to 20 fps velocity reduction while large magnum calibers may show 100 to 150 fps velocity reduction when switching to moly coated bullets.

This also may introduce another issue. As bore friction is reduced the bullet may accelerate down the bore as if it has lighter mass. This can result in secondary pressure spikes if the powder is too slow for the bullet's rate of acceleration.

Reduced Throat Erosion
It was originally claimed that throat erosion was reduced by using moly bullets. The jury is still out on this one...but most shooters tend to discount this claim. Throat erosion is primarily caused by hot gasses entering the throat behind the bullet, no doubt if the only difference is a moly coated bullet, throat erosion might be reduced because gas pressure and heat is reduced. But most shooters will add powder to regain the velocity lost when switching to moly. This should then produce similar pressure, heat and gas erosion of the throat.

As just one example of the bad information that has been disseminated about Moly, on page 231 of a popular book about long range accuracy the author states "The drop in pressure and velocity is NOT caused by a reduction in barrel friction as proposed by Norma and others. It is caused by the hot propellant gasses vaporizing the coating resulting in a cooling of about 400 degrees F." The author says he is "certain" about this because of "sophisticated internal ballistics code".

I understand the author's son is a chemist and that may have contributed to a "myopic" conclusion. If they had access to good pressure testing equipment we doubt they fully grasped the limitations of the mathematical algorithms used for the analysis or all of the issues affecting pressure. Increase pressure on a gas and it's temperature increases, reduce pressure in the chamber and the temperature will be lower. His own tests indicated pressures dropped from 54,000 psi to 47,000! This amount of pressure change can be produced with bare copper bullets by changing seating depth and/or neck tension in most calibers.

Supposed proof is when they introduced moly to powder without coating the bullet, pressures and velocities were still lower! Interestingly no one seems to be able to duplicate this experiment with a reasonable amount of moly (micro grains) and a cold clean uncontaminated barrel. Any detectable reduction in pressure is easily explained by the moly working as a slight burn rate deterrent as would be expected when any similar substance is used in sufficient quantity to coat powder granules.

Tests conducted with good instrumentation shows it is indeed moly's ability to reduce friction in the cartridge neck, throat and bore that reduces pressure. Norma was correct!

Less Copper Fouling
Perhaps the most legitimate claim about shooting moly is reduced copper fouling but even this claim cannot be universally applied. In quality barrels copper fouling is often minimal so switching to moly may offer little advantage, especially if you are not inclined to put large numbers of rounds through the barrel. This is what benchresters discovered. A good barrel will easily shoot 5 rounds without copper fouling. One characteristic of moly is that when starting with a cold clean bore it may take 10 to 20 shots for the bore to coat with moly so velocity stabilizes. This means benchresters where trying to shoot an entire match without cleaning. Benchresters simply concluded when firing a few rounds the introduction of another variable is a bigger disadvantage than the benefits of using moly coated bullets. If you shoot 50 to 100 rounds at a time and don't mind 10 fouling shots before velocities stabilize you might still consider using moly coated bullets.

Moly will build up in any barrel and is more difficult to remove (see below). If your barrel is prone to copper fouling, moly may help extend the number of shots before groups start opening up. However, if you can shoot 25 rounds of bare copper bullets without group sizes increasing there may not be a significant improvement by switching to moly. The bottom line is we have seen barrels that seemed to like moly, some where there was no appreciable difference and some that flat out did not seem to like the stuff.

Less Barrel Heating
I believe a primary benefit to shooting moly coated bullets is one rarely claimed by those selling moly products. In rough barrels that "walk" as they heat, moly seems to provide significant advantage when firing quick repetitive shots. I have a rifle chambered in .223 that is sensitive to heating even though it has a relatively thick production varmint barrel and has been well bedded. I used a thermometer to compare barrel heating and it took 14 moly coated rounds to heat the barrel to the same temperature as 5 copper jacketed rounds. The barrel does not copper foul more than most production barrels, but it is still rougher than I would like. In this rifle group sizes definitely benefit from moly.

Note: The bearing surface of a bullet increases exponentially with bore diameter. The larger the caliber the greater the friction reduction benfit. Smaller calibers often show only slightly less heating when shooting moly bullets. Smooth small caliber barrels may show no benefit at all. The above mentioned rifle has since been fire lapped so it no longer heats as badly. I compared heating again with bare and moly bullets and found only a 10 degree advantage after 15 shots of each...hardly enough to make a difference.

Cleaning Moly
Serious barrel damage can result from moly buildup (caking). All barrels will "cake" with moly but a barrel prone to copper fouling will collect more moly at fewer round intervals. Moly usually builds up "rings" at certain points in the bore. If the build up becomes sufficiently severe bullets fired through the restriction will expand the bore at these ring points. This is why some highpower shooters have wrecked barrels after more than 100 rounds.

A traditional measure of barrel smoothness and acceptable copper fouling is the ability to shoot at least 10 to 15 shots before a patch wet with Sweets turns green from jacket material embedded in the bore. If after a single shot there is indication of copper fouling, you should break in the barrel before shooting moly bullets. When copper fouling is minimal your bore should resist excessive moly caking but it will still need to be properly cleaned. MOLY IS NOT A WAY TO AVOID CLEANING YOUR RIFLE. (For more info. On the subject of copper fouling and shooting in barrels click here.)
I have tried several moly cleaning methods and settled on the one recommended by Walt Berger. Shooter's Choice, Hoppe's No. 9 or hot water and dishwasher detergent gel as some suggest simply does not work and may actually promote corrosion. Berger recommends using Kano Kroil penetrating oil and USP Bore Paste (similar to JB) at least every 80 to 100 shots (shorter intervals in guns prone to copper fouling). Their instructions are to run two patches wet with Kroil through the bore, a dry patch, a patch of USP Bore Paste, two patches of Kroil and a final dry patch. When running the bore paste through the bore they also suggest short 2 inch strokes. This method seems to clean caking out of the gun and smoothes the bore nicely without removing all the moly. You can purchase Kroil directly from the manufacturer at (615) 833-4101. USP's phone number is (412) 621-2130.

If you have a rifle that can shoot 25 rounds before is becomes copper fouled it may be easier to remove the copper with conventional solutions then trying to remove moly using the Berger prescribed method.

Corrosion
We have not seen any corrosion problems when using moly but we also do not store rifles without cleaning them thoroughly. There have been numerous reports of M1 shooters who failed to clean their gas tubes after shooting moly bullets only to discover nasty rust developing. If you shoot moly, make sure you clean every part of a semi auto's mechanism where powder and bore residue can collect. Most moly products do contain trace sulfides which can become acidic and promote corrosion in humid environs.

THE BOTTOM LINE
It is safe to discard most of the "hype" regarding extended barrel life, ease of cleaning, etc. and focus instead on performance. Nearly all competitive shooters have discarded Moly as a bad idea that introduced more variables then it eliminated. Copper is not difficult to remove with proper solvents and cleaning tools. If you see no substantial accuracy improvement with moly bullets then you may have no reason to use them.

On the other hand if you have a barrel that simply will not shoot well no matter what you try; or it "walks" badly as it heats, then moly coated bullets may be worth a try. Some rifles seem to prefer moly, others show no substantial difference. We have concluded there is a direct relationship between the quality of a barrel and the benefits accrued from using moly. Generally the better the barrel, the fewer benefits. Good barrels foul less, do not change shape as they heat and are easy to clean.

--------------------
LRD Out!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your point? You so graciously posted a report that has zero commoon ground with this thread. This thread is about monolithic bullets (specifically moly coated Lost River bullets). Not benchrest bullets and moly. I am a bechrest shooter and we do not use monolithic bullets for competition. Just too expensive. However to get good penentration at long hunting distances, one of the most viable means to do so is with monolithic bullets. And as I have explained before, this is a very good use for moly and it works for these monolithic bullets in MY rifle! I suspect if people properly conditioned the bore before shooting the moly bullets and maintained same cleaning regimen even when using moly (to prevent buildup) that they would have had similar successes. Without conditioning the bore, shooting moly bullets is not a good idea. I don't advocate moly for lead core bullets, but I sure do for those who hunt and want to shoot the monolithic style of bullets to ensure deep penetration or complete pass-throughs on shots for un-surpassed blood trails. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Finally, don't tell Eunice Berger (who won the super shoot shooting moly bullets) that they do not work.
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  #20  
Old 04-28-2005, 11:52 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 109
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

I whole heartedly agree with Long Range Demon TacKac on most of his post but I would like to add some input on some points.
In tests done in laboratory conditions measuring pressure at three locations, Chamber, mid point and 1 inch from barrel muzzle, small arms cal. 14,17, 222, 224, 25, 243, 7mm, 30, 338, 8mm, 416, 50, pistol 22, 25, 32,38, 40, 44, 45, 50. The testing also included 20mm, 30mm, 40mm, 81mm, 105mm,155mm. Literally thousands of rounds were fired in the small arms cal.

“As bore friction is reduced the bullet may accelerate down the bore as if it has a lighter mass. This can result in secondary pressure spikes if powder is too slow for the bullets rate of acceleration.”

Their was no sign of a secondary spike in pressure noted in any of the findings recorded in the testing we preformed from any of the small arms cal.

Throat erosion:
I agree with the listed causes of the erosion with the addition of one other cause that being the sand blasting effect of unburnt powder. Some of the barrels used had chrome lined chambers and were less likely to be affected buy any of the causes.

Less copper fouling:
In the tests we preformed copper fouling was less prevalent then in non coated barrels our tests used hand lapped and none lapped barrels the results showed there was a larger benefit to non lapped barrels. Their were two tests done with molly coated bullets one used clean barrels the other used barrels swabbed with molly diluted in alcohol and allowed to dry for 3 min. before firing. It was found that the velocity stabilized after the third round in the swabbed barrels and copper fouling was reduced and easer to clean out in these barrels.

Cleaning molly:
“Serious barrel damage can result from molly buildup (caking)….Molly usually builds up “rings” at certain points in the bore. If the build up becomes sufficiently severe bullets fired through the restriction will expand the bore at these ring points.”

The build up of molly in barrels was a concern covered in the testing; it was investigated and tested for to the extreme. Barrels were checked with bore scopes at 10, 20, 25, 30, 50,75,100, and up to 500 rounds without cleaning, tests were done in 224, 30, 50cal. and 20mm on full auto fire with no bulging barrels or for that mater excessive pressure. ( heat expanding the barrel in auto fire may have helped reduce pressure) in unlapped barrels molly build up in rough areas was present but by the end of testing build up was minimal even in these barrels.

The Bottom Line:
The test did show extended barrel life in reference to extending accuracy if a barrel was shooting well I would set the barrel back and rechamber.
Molly has other benefits for the long range shooter which have not been covered in past posts. Here is a test anyone can perform for themselves. Load 20 rounds with your favorite load and use 10 molly and ten uncoated bullets. Fire the 10 uncoated rds. At long range 500 meters or more, then swab the barrel with molly and alcohol and allow to dry, now fire at the same target using the molly bullets, you will see a marked difference in bullet impact on the target. I believe we saw a 40+ inch difference at 1000 yards with a 308 165 gr. As well as less recoil which means less fatigue in long matches.
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  #21  
Old 04-28-2005, 12:14 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 138
Re: Has anyone ever Moly coated Lost River Bullets

Didn't say it had anything to do with your Lost Rivers ....but it does have something to do with Moly..I see a few posts very similar to mine ...Lilja on Moly so Dude take a frikin chill pill and go bark up somebody elses tree!! all I said is ...it was a good read. Some folks here may be new at this and may find this post and some facts on moly interesting. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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