Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


Reply

Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-07-2011, 01:12 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Reno Nevada
Posts: 1,524
Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

Were all trying to get consistent 1/2 or less MOA at 100 yds. Thinking that will mean 1"MOA at 200yds. My AR-15 RRAs coyote on a good day gets 1"MOA at 100. But any day I can shoot water filled 16OZ Rock Star cans up 400 yds. ( With a perfect rest) Point is I don't think we need to sweat it if we can't get a 1/2 MOA at 100 .
__________________
How does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-07-2011, 01:26 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: AZ
Posts: 241
Re: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

1/2 MOA at 800 yards is around 4 inches. That means if everything I do is correct (all the variables including weather, how I read that weather, loading, listed BC, my math, my ballistic program, fevering, my rest, scope zeroing) I could miss by 4" (2" if my scope is perfect zeroed for my goup i suppose). 4" can be a complete miss on a Coues deer. I don't always get everything 100% right. I'm hunting, not shooting of a bench with flags telling me what the wind is doing. I like high BC bullets and super accurate, consistent loads. I want to minimize the amount of error in every shot. Most guys on here take pride in their ability in being able to make that 1st shot count. I know I would be somewhat let down If I make a marginal or poor shot on an animal. A lot of guys here are perfectionists. They see no reason to shoot anything less than their best. I'm in the same boat, I see no reason to settle. I'll try to get the best I can out of what I have.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-07-2011, 01:56 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northeast
Posts: 2,442
Re: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

I think it depends on your quarry and your max range. For whitetail, mule deer, antelope, coyote, out past 600 yards I think .5 moa or better adds insurance for making a clean kill particularly if wind or mirage plays into the shot. I also think that working with rifles that shoot at .25-.5 MOA helps to keep your shooting skills honed in. It's one thing to have a rifle that shoots that accurately, it's another to actually use it in a hunting environment where conditions are not optimum.
__________________

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready"-T. Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Star, ID
Posts: 287
Re: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

I will say that I believe quoted group size is likely very overrated. I don't doubt many quotes are true, occasionally or once, but rarely a true average and definetely not worst case. Too many guys quote their off the shelf guns always shoot under .25 out to X hundreds of yards, which is not likely the case with most $4000 custom guns. To think otherwise would fly in the face of some of the better smiths and would mean the 1/2" guarantee's they give are not that valuable.

Of course us boys are always interested in size!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-07-2011, 02:04 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,624
Re: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Worker View Post
Were all trying to get consistent 1/2 or less MOA at 100 yds. Thinking that will mean 1"MOA at 200yds. My AR-15 RRAs coyote on a good day gets 1"MOA at 100. But any day I can shoot water filled 16OZ Rock Star cans up 400 yds. ( With a perfect rest) Point is I don't think we need to sweat it if we can't get a 1/2 MOA at 100 .
Groups have always been controversial and opinions range from not nessary to never good enough.

The main reason some place so much emphasis on group size, it tells them what the rifle is capable
of under perfict conditions and if no mistakes are made by the shooter. It does not however
guarantee perfict hits every time.

A rifle that is capable of 1/4 MOA eliminates any excuses that I may have for less than a perfict
shot placement And places all of the burden on me to perform at a higher level.

Also a good group does not mean that you your rifle and ammo can duplicate that "Best Group"
but it does mean that the rifle is capable of it from time to time with every thing correct and
the shooter at the top of his game.

For the long range hunter/shooter it proves consistency and gives him confidence to take an otherwise
impossible shot.

Is group size for every one? Probably not. but for some that never stop trying to improve, it
is a benchmark that every thing related to accuracy and consistency is based on.

Is it nessary for everyone? No. Especially if they don't shoot beyond there rifles ability or there
own skill level.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM
__________________
"PRESS ON"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-07-2011, 03:23 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 4422′44″N 1082′35″W
Posts: 4,045
Re: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
Groups have always been controversial and opinions range from not nessary to never good enough.

The main reason some place so much emphasis on group size, it tells them what the rifle is capable
of under perfict conditions and if no mistakes are made by the shooter. It does not however
guarantee perfict hits every time.

A rifle that is capable of 1/4 MOA eliminates any excuses that I may have for less than a perfict
shot placement And places all of the burden on me to perform at a higher level.

Also a good group does not mean that you your rifle and ammo can duplicate that "Best Group"
but it does mean that the rifle is capable of it from time to time with every thing correct and
the shooter at the top of his game.

For the long range hunter/shooter it proves consistency and gives him confidence to take an otherwise
impossible shot.

Is group size for every one? Probably not. but for some that never stop trying to improve, it
is a benchmark that every thing related to accuracy and consistency is based on.

Is it nessary for everyone? No. Especially if they don't shoot beyond there rifles ability or there
own skill level.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM
Couldnt agree more. You hear people say "I cant shoot paper but I have no problem on game" well thats because any hit on the rib cage or shoulder is in their mind dead on. They dont like shooting paper because there is no longer a "right in there" effect. You can see exactly where the hits are going... at 400 yards I can shoot a pop can and feel pretty good about myself, however if I am shooting a pop can sized group on paper at 400 I feel like crap. so I like many thers strive for the tiniest most consistent groups possible, because I know if I can hold a 1 1/2" group at 400 there is no excuse to miss that coyote or deer or whatever. My mother has a model 7 in 243 that thing shoots terrible on paper (3 inches) but when hunting out to 300 or so yards its like she cant miss. she has no idea how that rifle shoots in reality but it is all relevant to the game and the shooter and that shooters standards.
__________________
Mike

Get a JOB! I already feed the bears, I dont need to feed you too!

" Real elk guns start with the number 3 or bigger and blow two holes, one in and one out." - My Dad
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NC, oceanfront
Posts: 3,369
Re: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngbuck View Post
Most guys on here take pride in their ability in being able to make that 1st shot count.
I seriously doubt this. And I've yet to see this as prevalent at any forum..
I doubt there are 100 shooters here who have tested and come to recognize their true cold bore accuracy potential. Fewer who have cold bore load developed.

Accuracy is defined with one shot, center of mark to center of impact.
So yeah, a 1moa grouping gun can be accurate despite. In fact, it can be incredibly accurate -for one shot.
With this, it's just a matter of how consistently the shooter/gun combo is accurate -for one shot.
And the next, and the next.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Groups size ? Is it over rated ?
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Whats a good 400yd Groups size ??? robbobsam Long Range Hunting & Shooting 14 10-01-2011 12:00 PM
xxx rated, Not for tender eyes. 300grn mk .338 7mmrowland Long Range Hunting & Shooting 11 10-03-2009 10:30 AM
time to anneal and fl size?groups are verticle? 30-06 boy Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 3 10-25-2008 11:14 AM
what size groups col48 Reloading 13 05-01-2006 01:40 PM
.50 cal rated scopes thequickad Long Range Scopes and Other Optics 7 12-20-2003 08:15 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC