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Group size at what range?

 
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  #15  
Old 10-05-2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

Freebird63,

I am not upset of offended by your comments in any way, just offering another side of the conversation. Sometimes posts on line come off as heated comments, not the case here at all, just a discussion and I have taken nothing you have stated as a challange to me at all.

I am just saying that there is something to bullet consistancy as it travels over distance and when shooting high BC bullets at high velocity and out of a fast twist barrel, it is very common to see the group size measured in MOA drop and often drop significantly as the yardage increases. Thats all.

Now if that does not happen, obviously your rifle does not like that bullet and you will likely not see this happen with conventional weight for caliber bullets and especially not with light for caliber bullets.

Good discussion.
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  #16  
Old 10-05-2010, 12:26 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

I have seen groups tighten on my .300rum, it will shoot 210SMK's at around .450" at 100 yards, and 1.90" at 500yds. The 210 SMK is right around 1.5" long and does seem to stabilize better at extended ranges, I think stability factors have a lot to do with this also. In my rifle this bullet is leaving with a 1.9 stability factor.
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  #17  
Old 10-05-2010, 12:27 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

My ultra mag doesnt shoot bergersworth beans. Tried everything. Same powder charge, more or less powder, different seating, different primers and so on. She just doesnt like bergers.
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  #18  
Old 10-05-2010, 12:36 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

Mine either, nor did it like 208 a-maxs which blew my mind, but it loves 210 and 240 SMK's and the 165 GMX's i hunt with, thank God!
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  #19  
Old 10-05-2010, 01:03 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

The A-Max bullets have a very similiar velocity limit as the Bergers. In most cases, if a rifle likes Berger bullets, it will also shoot A-Max bullets very well, that is IN MOST CASES. Nothing is written in stone.

To the other end, if a rifle does not like the Berger, it often does not like the A-Max either.

The SMKs have a much thicker jacket then either of these other two match bullets and that is why on average, it will shoot acceptably well out of most rifles and chamberings, even high velocity ones with good accuracy. I have not found the velocity ceiling of the SMK bullets in approriate for bullet twist rates and believe me, I have TRIED VERY HARD!!!

I have driven the 107 gr 6mm SMK to +3600 fps with fine accuracy, same with the 142 gr 6.5mm SMK at 3550 fps, the 175 gr 7mm SMK at 3600 fps and the 210 gr SMK at +3450 fps.

I have yet to see a SMK dust except for some 80 gr 22 cals that were shot out of a Lilja 3 groove barrel chambered in 22-6mm AI going well over 3550 fps. In this case, they were simply over spun and the 22 cal SMK jackets are thinner then the others.
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Allen Precision Shooting
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  #20  
Old 10-05-2010, 01:39 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

We've had the discussion about smaller moa groups at longer ranges many times here on LRH. Kirby used a good example in his earlier post. Notice that he never said that the actual measurement of the groups in inches got smaller as the distance increased. Merely that they didn't get much bigger, hence the smaller moa. This makes perfect sense with the "going to sleep" theory on long bullets.

On the other hand, when somebody claims that their rifle shoots 2 inch groups at 100 yards and 1 inch groups at 300 yards, that is where I call "bull". That is not physically possible assuming shooter error is eliminated. What Kirby describes doesn't violate any laws of physics. Thanks for the input as always, Kirby.
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  #21  
Old 10-05-2010, 02:58 PM
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Re: Group size at what range?

It's rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
Just for the sake of conversation, how do you explain that a rifle can shoot 1/2 moa groups at 100 yards, 1/3 moa groups at 300 yards and 1/5 moa groups at 500 yards?
Someone slipped us ‘Smart Bullets’ that self correct for any angular errors that occurred -earlier in their flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
To put that into actual inches. This particular rifle averaged 0.7" to 0.8" ctc three shot groups at 100 yards. Shot between 0.9" and 1.1" groups at 300 yards and has shot SEVERAL sub 1" ctc three shot groups at 500 yards.
Well, unless it’s said smart bullet conspiracy, it must be something else (like parallax). Why couldn’t it just be parallax?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
I have seen this with many rifles, also, the longer the bullet, the faster the twist, the faster the bullet is driven, the more dramatic this group size reduction can be when measured in MOA.
These same factors follow systems used for ever longer ranges. But I do get apparent tighter moa with distance shooting using 50gr FB bullets from a 223(14tw~3600fps). In fact I have always shot tighter MOA with distance, with any gun I’ve developed loads for(to a point). My son does not with the same guns. But he doesn’t wear glasses either..
At any rate, this isn’t ballistics. It’s shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
This is really a moot point, until the rifle in question is properly tested from a solid shooting position, we can not begin to say why the groups are increasing in size.
If the ‘question’ was why groups increase downrange, then everything about this thread should really be questioned. Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that groups usually open with range? C’mon, this is a long range hunting site…
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