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Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

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Unread 12-10-2008, 08:38 AM
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Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

Originally Posted by lazylabs View Post
What were the changes made to gen II?

The Gen I bullets were tested and found to have basically the same instrumental BC of the 300 SMK (.770 as compared to .768) and the major advantage to the 265s over the 300 SMK was the ability to push the same BC 200+ fps faster than the 300 SMK out of my 30" 338 Lapua Improved.

Now, the Gen IIs have a much less bearing surface and they can be pushed about 249 fps faster than the 300 SMK AND as a bonus they have a much higher BC as indicated by the significant differences in drop we saw during our 400 zeroing and 600 yard mid range drop test session the other day.... We knew it was significant when we set up the 100 yard impact points the same as the 300 SMK loads and then had to LOWER the 265gr impact point 4.7" to obtain a true zero at 400 yards. Then we got some additional validation to the 400 yard data when the drop was 1.4 moa LESS at 600 yards than the 300 SMK.

Finally, the bulletsmith modified the bullets to use some of the aerodynamic design and technology employed on our Submarine launched ICBMs that I moved around the ocean for 30 years. Very discreet, but present.

When our hunting season is over and the ballistic testing season begins in January, we will be shooting instrumental velocities.

Thanks for your interest and let me know if you have any additional questions.


Unread 12-10-2008, 08:40 AM
Posts: n/a
Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

Originally Posted by new shooter View Post
How longs the barrel and what powder and primmer. thanks joe

The barrel is 30" long, the powder is Retumbo and the primer is a federal 215. The drop tube is 7 foot long.

Unread 12-10-2008, 09:42 AM
Posts: n/a
Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

Originally Posted by groper View Post
haha all this HAT banter is becoming amusing

The main concern with these bullets has always been what goodgrouper originally found... Failure to expand well due to a thick jacket. This so called test doesnt address that, same as everything else youve ever posted...

Why cant you do a long range test with these 'control doe' you seem to have such easy access to? Next time, why dont you take the doe you killed at close range, and set him up 1000yds away and do a second test? Is it because that be too conclusive for you? Or is it becasue you cant seem to hit anything beyond 1000yds with this bullet?
Hello Groper/grouper or whoever you are,

Before anything else let me say that we are very pleased that you are interested in the HATS and we would like to know what rifles/calibers you have so that we may be of assistance in helping you select the correct bullet for your needs and shooting applications.

As originally stated, this test was not designed/intended to prove adequate expansion at longer ranges, it was aimed at proving that it does not detonate at close range. A huge difference to say the least.

Our intentions are to take one at longer ranges now that we know the bullet works well up close. The tests that your friend did on the phone books was with the generation I bullets and these are generation II as per the title. Finally, your friends test results were basically shown to be less than accurate when game started falling with the Gen I bullets. Not to mention the standard set of conditions used for the test by starting the bullet out slow creating a slow rotational velocity....... Anyway, what we have always wondered is why was the phone book test conducted by your friend not conducted at full velocity and at 1000 yards? Was it because (as you say) of it being too conclusive? The way we look at it is that if you can't shoot well enough to hit phone books at 1000 yards, then maybe that distance is a little too far for your expertise as a tester. Heck, shooting phone books is not hard at longer distances if the equipment will shoot less than minute-of-phone-book accuracy........ All you have to do is set up the drop board along side the phone book and then shoot a sighter into the drop board and make the correction on the phone book. I don't see what is so extremely hard with that. Whatever the case, the only conclusive method of proving adequate expansion on game at longer distances is to actually shoot live animals at longer distances.

Shooting dead aniimals for expansion testing being conclusive? Sorry, they are not. If you would have followed this subject for some time and would have read the reference material that I recommended and used as a source for our testing, you would have seen that shooting dead animals is significantly different than shooting animals with blood pressure present. Specifically, Army testers found that shooting dead animals was akin to shooting blocks of clay since the blood settles in the animal due to gravity. So shooting one already dead does not answer your questions about proper expansion at longer ranges...... Actually, shooting dead animals would indicate more expansion than one would see in a live animal and we want to be accurate as possible with our testing results.

Your questons about shooting game beyond 1000 yards......... I do not currently have the adequate facility in SC to do that yet. We can shoot 2000 yards, but the area is subject to extreme influences of conditions and it would be more akin to trick shooting than hunting. However, my private range is very protected and "friendly" for testing and it is not hard to shoot some good groups and it is also a great place to test rifles, scopes, bullets etc. But, my yardage limits are 978 on my private range for target testing and the extreme longest shot on game that we can make is 925 if one presents itself and then usbequently poses for the shot......

Additionally, shooting dead animals would waste the meat as well as ruin the opportunity to donate the meat to needy families.

The invitation is always open to all comers from January to March 15 to come out and show us what you got...... Maybe you would like to put on a demonstration and show us how it is done? BTW, have you ever got to shoot something like uh, say a Don Powell return to battery rail gun at 1000 yards....... If not, it is a blast to say the least.

Hopefully, I addressed all of your concerns........... Anyway, whatever you have as a motivation for your interest, thanks for your interest in the HATS. Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Unread 12-10-2008, 10:08 AM
Posts: n/a
Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

Originally Posted by edge View Post
Thanks again for not posting pictures, as most hunters are a bit squeamish at the sight of blood, and they are much too stupid to decipher for themselves any information from the actual wound pictures :(


It is not an issue about your stupidity, squeamishness or lack of either or even both. Initially, we were going to post photos of all the entrance and exit wounds (with dowel rods inserted to indicate path through the animal), but since we were told that they would not believe a photo, we saw no benefit at all in going throgh the aggrevation of taking or posting them and then ultimately having to defend them against naysayers..... So, it is a policy that we will not take or post photos that could wind up somewhere else and fuel an anti-hunting agenda. Again, the skeptics/conspiracy theorists would not believe a photo anyway and they have stated that. I cannot understand why you do not understand that we are not going to post photos.... We have said it many times.

If you cannot visualize a picture from what we have described, then you will just have to get some bullets and conduct your own testing just like you would do with any other projectile. Furthermore, if you take all the variables into account, no two wound channels and exits are the same. Just way too may possible/potential angles and shot aspects. On one hunting lease that we had, we were taking between 400 and 600 deer per year and that gave us the opportunity to see and participate in may "autopsies" over the years and there are not any two wounds exactly the same on game animals. In Gelatin block yes, animals, no. However, the most conclusive shot aspect (to me) is the perfect right to left or left to right shot, but rarely can you get the animal adjusted to 90 degrees with respect to bullet flight.

Anyway, thanks for your interest in the HATS and sorry we could not help you with the photos. Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Unread 12-10-2008, 10:21 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MS
Posts: 1,652
Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1


I understand how southeastern deer have a tendency to move very late and understand why you wouldnt have pictures normally. I very seldom get pictures myself. What I do not understand is why you wouldn't come out and say that to begin with, rather than saying we are not posting pictures. Sometimes when you dance around legitimate questions you lose credibility. With a loss of credibility you lose buyer confidence. You are representing a good guy IMO, and I am keeping an open mind as to his product.

Goodgroupers tests are given a lot of credibility because they come from a credible source. It doesnt always mean I agree with his results, but he lays everything out there so anyone reading his tests can make an informed decision as to the conslusiveness of his testing. Maybe you should take a lesson from from GG. Post your results and the paramaters of your testing including some data (ie...some pictures) and let us make our own conclusions.

I have a bunch of the HAT bullets sitting around and havent had a chance to test any, other than the 240 subsonics. I must say that the subsonic bullets are the cats meow. I will try and work up loads for the 180gr 30 cal bullets in my 30/06AI and for the 265gr 338s in my 338AM and shoot something. If they work well I will post my results. If they flop I will post that also. (probably I will end up not shooting anything if my luck doesnt change)

I have talked to the bullet maker at least twice on the phone. He is good folks IMO. I am not going to let his association with you lessen my opinion of his product although many seem willing to do this. Not that I think you are a bad guy or anything, and I understand that the typed word sometimes does not convey a persons true personality, it is that loss of buyer confidence I referred to earlier. Probably if we spoke on the phone or in real life my opinion of you would change, but right now I think you are a little too prone to dazzle us with BS. That isnt to say that I am disputing one word you have said about the benefits of this product, just shoot straight with us man. We can make our own choices if given some reliable data. I do like your enthusiasm for the product which leads me to beleive that you do beleive in these bullets.
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.
Unread 12-10-2008, 10:45 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,088
Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

Originally Posted by Lightvarmint View Post

If you cannot visualize a picture from what we have described, then you will just have to get some bullets and conduct your own testing just like you would do with any other projectile.

Unfortunately you can not be cajoled into doing what is in your own best interest!
You claim to be doing testing, and I believe you, but would suggest some more reliable methods of recording your results!

I have no dog in this fight, but from a scientific standpoint to NOT take pictures is negligent on your part!

You are on Gen II bullets, but except for your notes and your memory you have no, none, zero way to compare actual wound data from animals that were taken earlier.

Let me give you a hypothetical example:

Last year you shot a 115 pond doe which you noted broke two ribs entering and one exiting, the heart was severely damaged as well as both lungs, but the deer ran 100 yards before collapsing.

Fast forward to your "new and improved" Gen II bullets. This year a similar shot was taken on a similar deer and once again two ribs were hit going in, the lungs were mush two ribs were broken going out. The deer was DRT.

You surmise that the new jacket design has helped with expansion, but if you compared the actual photos, this years shot centered the entrance rib whereas last years was toward the front edge which sent shrapnel rearward instead of in a uniform blast pattern.

IMO, you do the manufacturer a disservice by not collecting as much data as is reasonably possible, and a digital camera records about as faithfully as is feasible.


PS If someone is not willing to believe a picture, then they certainly won't believe a rendition based on memory!! When I test, I try to show as much as is needed for clarity!

A few years ago I was testing some 8mm bullets. Here are some photo results from the autopsy:

Entrance wound from the outside.

Entrance wound from the inside.

Exit wound from the inside.

Exit wound from the outside.

Newest sabot version and the one used on this deer.


PPS this particular deer was shot from a 505 Gibbs barrelled muzzleloader at around 3150 fps

Last edited by edge; 12-10-2008 at 10:53 AM. Reason: PPS
Unread 12-10-2008, 11:01 AM
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: N.GA
Posts: 139
Re: Gen II Henson .338 265 grain project and performance test #1

Apparently Thomas is forcing my hand.
If we send pictures how many here will belive them?
YES OR NO..........................
A Bullet Smith...

Last edited by GREYGHOSTt; 12-10-2008 at 11:32 AM.
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