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fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

 
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  #50  
Old 01-04-2009, 07:48 PM
Lightvarmint
 
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Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

Kirby,

Hello again, I just ran the numbers on JBM at 82 feet above sea level using your new brass performance value at 3400 fps with the 300 SMK and compared it to the HATS out of my 338 Lapua Improved using Eddybo's BC of .910..... Remember, I have not tested the BC as of yet, but Eddybo has numbers that work in one of your rifles so we will use it for comparison........


338 AM with 300 SMK

Range----Velocity---kinetic energy--drift-----drop (400 yard zero)

0000-----3400------7699.2 -----------------

500-------2749.0---5033.2-----------8.8"------9.2"

700-------2513.9---4209.1----------17.9"-----41.8"

1000------2182.3---3171.7----------38.9"---133.4"

1500------1685.2---1891.4----------99.0"---444.7"

2000------1286.7---1102.6---------201.6"--1070.3"

2500------1043.9-----725.8---------354.6"--2227.5"

3000--------919.9-----563.6---------549.4"--4183.8"


338 Lapua Improved with 265 grain HAT

Range-----Velocity--kinetic energy-drift-----drop (400 yard zero)

0000-------3245-----6195.0 --------------

500--------2708.0--4314.5-----------7.7"-----9.7"

700--------2510.6--3708.3---------15.7"----43.8"

1000-------2230.3--2926.4----------33.8"---137.4"

1500-------1804.7--1916.1----------84.2"---442.8"

2000-------1442.3--1223.9---------166.8"---1020.0"

2500-------1170.8---806.5----------290.0"---2021.5"

3000-------1011.8---602.3----------453.9"---3660.1"


So, as you can see, the 338 Lapua Improved using the HATS (with Eddybo's BC values) and using about 40 grains less powder, out performs the Cheytac-based case with 300 SMKs in every catagory starting at 1500 yards unless the cheytac-based case is using the HAT bullets. This is not too bad for the "little" Lapua case.

--Specifically, the wind drift is always in favor of the HAT load in the Lapua case.

--The velocity favors the HAT in the Lapua case starting at about 750 yards and then on out until it hits the ground.

--Kinetic Energy and drop favors the HAT in the Lapua case starting at about 1450 yards and continues until ground impact.

Based on this comparison model it looks like the 338 Lapua Improved with the HATS is a much better long range performer than the Cheytac-based case with the 300 SMKs and again it uses about 35% less powder to do it.............

Additionally, it seems that all the horse power advantage that is gained by the much larger case is all gone by 750 yards for velocity and 1500 yards for energy due to less efficiency of the 300 SMK.

So, as previously stated, unless the shooter with the Cheytac-based case is using the HATS, a "little" case such as the .338 Lapua Improved using the HATS will surpass its performance with much less powder......

I guess the morale of all this number crunching is to use the HATS for LESS DRIFT, LESS DROP and MORE POP!

Lightvarmint

Last edited by Lightvarmint; 01-04-2009 at 08:09 PM. Reason: added drop figures
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  #51  
Old 01-04-2009, 10:59 PM
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Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

Forgot to mention I have to use .820 bc with the 300 gr SMK at these velocities and my elevation to get drop chart to match up with actual trajectory over 2K yards.

Sorry for forgetting to put that in.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #52  
Old 01-05-2009, 01:26 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,377
Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

Ever seen one of those little ankle biting dogs, yap, yap, yap. Ok, we all see you, we all know you're important. Now please go chase a car.

Before anyone asks, I can appreciate the irony in my posting such a response.

Last edited by grit; 01-05-2009 at 01:31 AM.
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  #53  
Old 01-05-2009, 08:32 AM
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Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

I guess the way I look at it, the 300 gr SMK is THE standard in long range 338 cal performance. It works, it works very well, its heavy and has a very high SD. I have never had a problem with this bullet as far as penetration or expansion. At times it may overexpand a bit but because of its 300 gr bullet weight, its got some to spear.

Accuracy is amazing, consistancy is not always the best but an hour on the bench and you can short out 500 bullets so that is a moot point. They are easy to get most of the time and for todays standards, they are relatively inexpensive which is not a bad thing when you have 4 or 5 big 338 rifles using them.

I always welcome improvements in ballistic performance, anyone that has read any of my posts know how I like to push the envelope and encourage anyone else to do the same as long as they do it in a safe manner.

Are the HAT bullets a ballistic improvement over the 300 gr SMK, certainly. Are then an improvement terminally??? THat has yet to be seen, just not enough data in the books to say they are the equal to a 300 gr SMK. Especially on heavier game such as elk.

The 300 gr SMK has put down many thousands of elk and while there are some rare reports of bullet failure, these are few and far between and in several of the instances I have heard about, pilot error had more to do with the problems then bullet performance.

I welcome the HAT bullets, I think they are on the right track to what we need to take the next step. I will be honest, Having shot both the HAT and the prototype Wildcat bullets, I feel the Wildcat was much more consistant in expansion over a wide range of velocities and had a significantly higher BC as well with no increase in baring surface. Just a more aggressive design.

Some say a bit less aggressive design is a more consistantly accurate bullet. Perhaps, but if we have the ability to make a mid to upper .9 BC bullet that will shoot 1 moa at +3000 yards, why not push ahead to that level. Perhaps the issue is manufacturing ease.

I guess that when I hear comments like, "If you use the HAT bullets in the smaller 338 magnums, they will equal or exceed the performance of the 408 based 338 wildcats." It makes me smile a bit. Certainly LV is pushing a product he believes in. No problem there, but the VAST majority of shooters out there WILL be using the 300 gr SMK in their smaller 338 magnum rifles, that is just a fact. Even if the HAT bullets become mainstream.

I have been in this business long enough to know that the top level shooter will shoot what works best of gives him the most performance, no matter the price. I also know that these guys make up a very small percentage of the shooting and hunting population and the rest of them will likely see the HAT bullets, like them, possibly even try some but if they shoot any volume at all, they will not drop $165 on 100 bullets when they can get 500, 300 gr SMKs for another $60. In this day and age, economics will effect bullet sales for the average shooter.

And as far as the 338-408 CT shooters, I believe they will probably be more likely to purchase the HAT bullets over the guy shooting a higher volume shooting, smaller 338 magnum simply because the 408 bases shooter will likely not be shooting nearly as many bullets per session which will allow him to justify the much more expensive bullet.

I see this all the time with 50 BMG shooters. Sure they have an accuracy load developed with the 750 gr A-max which will run around the same price as the HAT bullet a piece, but when they take the friends out to plink, there will be some surplus 647s or 700 gr APs in the cases and they will shoot many dozens of those for every one A-Max they shoot.

Again, these are the average shooter, the cream of the crop will likely never put an AP projo through their fine rifle but again these are a very small number of shooters in our sport.

Finally, just want to stress my point. There will be far more shooters out there using the 300 gr SMK in their 338 magnums no matter what case its using compared to the HAT bullets. Its true the HAT bullets gives the smaller 338 magnums a boost in performance ballistically but that same advantage is also given to the 408 based shooters.

The long term performance record of the HAT bullets is just starting. They started a bit shaky and are coming on better now as any custom bullet will do. But to say that they are a huge improvement over the 300 gr SMK just because they have a higher BC is in my opinion getting ahead of our selves. Lets get a few hunting seasons under our belts and a good number of truely unbiased hunters using them and reporting on them before we crwon them the wonder bullet for the 338 cal.

No flame to LV, certainly none to Mr. Henson. I am impressed with his vision to push the envelope. Just wish he would come on and talk to us about his products more often is all.

Also want to hear more thrid party reports on these bullets. That is where the we will learn the most about these bullets from. That takes time, no other way to get that information. Time will tell.

For now, every 338 RUM, 338 Edge, 338 Ultra Maxx, 338 Allen Xpress, 338 Kahn or 338 Allen Magnum that comes out of my shop WILL be accuracy tested with the 300 gr SMK because I know exactly what this bullet has done, will do today and will also do tomorrow. Simply put, it flat out works and it works extremely well so that is why it is and will likely remain the standard of long range performance for the 338 magnums.

No reason not to keep pushing the envelope though.
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #54  
Old 01-05-2009, 09:55 AM
Lightvarmint
 
Posts: n/a
Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

Kirby,

I must apologize that I did not state the standard conditions for the above numbers.....

BOTH sets of numbers were using the same altitude and atmospheric conditions..... Specifically, the altitude was 82 feet above sea level..... So if the BC for the 300 SMK gets adjusted for an altitude change, then the HAT BC should be adjusted for that same altitude change to keep the comparison consistent. Additionally, we ran the numbers using the 280 grain HAT model out of a 338 Lapua Improved casing and it was more significant in comparison than the 265 grain HAT out of the same case when compared to the Cheytac-based cases with the 300 SMK at 3400 fps......

You mention that you have faith in the 300 SMKs.... I do too.... I have a lot of them that have been sorted into the many different groups that one finds in large boxes of them... Specifically, we sort by weight, bearing surface, meplat consistency and then once that is done, we break them up into the four different heel geometries that we have seen. We have seen at least four distinct different heel configurations coming out of the same batch(s) of bullets.

And, we use them...... Specifically, we use them to practice with and to fireform cases with. They are a great practice bullet and a great fireforming bullet.

Just imagine the possibilities shooters have given that you are getting a solid 3400 fps with the 300 grain SMK and we get a 250 to 300 fps bump in velocity just by going from 300 grains to 265 grains in our guns.....

WOW, that equates to 3650 fps or even 3700 fps with the 265 grain HAT out of a Cheytac-based case..... Run the numbers at a sea level altitude with the 300 SMK at 3400 fps and the 265 grain HAT at 3700 fps and you will see the distinct advantage these bullets exhibit in the Cheytac-based cases. It is hard to ignore that comparison............

Our next mission/project is to see how close we can get to the performance figures in your post on 2-11-08 with us using a 300 RUM-based case. The reason we will use the 2-11-08 number is due to the large numbers of guns that were manufactured and sold based on this data..... We will be doing the comparison in both .30 and .338 calibers. Hopefully, we get closer than some might think....

Additioanlly, I would like to purchase one of your 338 Allen Magnum fire formed cases for my case collection since it has your name on the headstamp. Let me know how much it is and I will send you the funds for the shipping and the case. Thanks again.

Again, good luck in 2009.

Lightvarmint
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  #55  
Old 01-05-2009, 11:02 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 865
Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightvarmint View Post
LL,

For instance.

When I decided to get into benchrest, I noticed that everyone was scratching for good brass back in the mid 1990s...... As soon as the brass became available, I purchased 7000 pieces..... Now I don't have to worry about brass.

Next, I got the 600 yard bug and purchased a new 6mm Dasher bench gun. Since the original purchase, I have added three new additional barrels to my barrel inventory. So when Obama got elected and I got concerned about supply of shooting components, I then purchased an addtitional 70,000 primers and 144 lbs of powder..... Also, when copper started moving up in price this last year, I got concerned and purchased 8000 bullets on sale for the 600 yard gun and now I don't have to worry about barrel supply, bullet supply, primer supply or powder supply .

Lightvarmint
You're the reason!!!!! You are the guy.............You are the reason I can never find components when I need them.

Stop it, will ya!!!!
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  #56  
Old 01-05-2009, 01:41 PM
Lightvarmint
 
Posts: n/a
Re: fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?

Kirby,

I would agree that one needs to be skeptical about new products. I also agree that testing needs to continually be done and the truth be known, the testing process really NEVER stops.

However, when the HATS are the only bullet company we have found that offers a money back customer satisfaction guarantee on their products, the risk of using them is far, far, far less than buying say a custom gun from a custom gunsmith that does not live in your locale or even region of the country.... I have heard too many horror stories about shady practices, misinformation on barrel twists as well as incorrect barrels being used or billed to the customer and that is a scary thought.

Mr Henson includes reloading "tips" for these projectiles on the reverse of EVERY invoice to ensure the customer has the best chance at success. Afterall, some folks on this very website have learned just this year that you can shoot bughole groups without the bullets engaging the rifling lands at the time of ignition......

I just wish all the suppliers of shooting products and firearms had the same customer satisfaction policies as Mr Henson.

Kirby, again, good luck in 2009 and stay warm.

Lightvarmint
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