may I ask you in your professional opinion as gun smith or any other respected smith on this board
not being a gun smith or an engineer but forgive me if iam wrong but when you order a barrel for a customer does It come with the contour that require and have asked for ??
also why would a barrel that is supposed to be brand new from the factory and not finished come with an 11 degree crown and half a cut chamber which perfectly fits a 6mm BR case it has no threads on the barrel shank so leading me to believe its been cut off hence half the chamber is left,also isn't a new barrel suppose to have the caliber and the twist rate stamped on the end of it ??
would any smith purposely order or a totally wrong contoured barrel and then take the time and effort to contour it yourself ?? also if I take this barrel and have it re contoured to what I wanted which was a medium sporter Krieger #3 would this effect the barrels performance ??
Ackley (Funky Pete [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]),
Can i just bring to your attention That Lother walther supply barrels in various stages of completion, from an unprofiled blank to a full short chambered, contoured, threaded and crowned barrel, ready to go.
It looks to me like you have something in between.
I am a toolmaker/precision machinist and can tell you that barrel profiling on a manual machine is not a task to be taken lightly.
From your pictures it looks like you have a barrel that has had the barrel tenon chopped off, ready for the tenon to be re-turned and the chamber to be re-cut.
The barrel tenon is always turned before chambering.
i was not going to get involved in this but the barrel and action was sent to me so i am privy to how it came.
the barrel looks to me as if it was chambered in 6mm BR an was ready for fitting to a action. then as you say the tenon has been chopped of leaving a partial chamber. a 6mm BR fits in perfect.
it looks to have a 11 degree crown on and i have personally checked the twist rate on the barrel using the cleaning rod method. i tried it 10 times and it was precisely 1 in 10 twist every time. not ubove or below bang on 1 in 10.
i have been asked to get the barrel he ordered and i don't think loather do a 1 in 12 twist.
the barrel looked to me as if it has been rough parted on a lathe with a parting tool. this left it looking very untidy so we dressed the end up to make it look more presentable.
we was going to remove the hole of the chamber but this would leave the barrel at 24" i would say that the barrel was never intended to go on Pete's rifle.
i am not a gunsmith. so i to would be very interested in hearing from some of the gunsmiths on hear as i know they will tell it how they see it.
In my opinion, That looks like a barrel that was finished for another rifle and as mentioned has had the threaded shank removed.
Also in my opinion, the only correct way to get a true world class barrel is to order it in the contour that you want. Now I am not saying it is not possible to contour a barrel blank and get results but it is highly uncommon for an experienced smith to order a barrel of a contour or profile other then what they want and then contour the barrel themselves.
If contoured incorrectly, it is extremely easy to induce a stress into the barrel.
As far as the other machining on the barrel, that is certainly not my practice to set up a barrel which is as follows.
1. Take a new barrel blank
2. Dial in the barrel in the lathe chuck, breech end out, for zero bore run out.
3. Fit the bore with the proper live pilot bushing that fits the bore diameter to 0.0002" or less.
4. Take my live piloted 60 degree center cutting tool and center cut the breech end of the barrel blank. This perfectly conventric 60 degree cone cut will ride on my precision 60 degree live center in the tail stock. Then reverse the barrel in the chuck and do the same to the muzzle end so both ends have a perfectly concentric 60 degree center cut to the axis of the bore.
Then pull the barrel out of the lathe chuck until only the barrel shank is held by the chuck and the muzzle is supported by the 60 degree live center at the tailstock. I then take a very light truing cut, roughly 1/2" to 3/4" long, just deep enough to get a perfectly true cut on the muzzle that is concentric to the bore. In most barrel blanks this portion of the barrel is scrap anyway so no barrel length is lost.
5. Pull the barrel out of the chuck and then chuck up the barrel with the muzzle in the chuck clamped on the trued section at the muzzle and the breech extended down the lathe bed and supported by the 60 degree live center and dial in the muzzle end at the chuck to zero run out.
6. Now the barrel blank is turning perfectly true to the axis of the bore supported by the 60 degree cut at teh chamber end riding on the live center.
7. Cut the barrel shank to dimension, again perfectly concentric to the axis of the bore.
8. Thread the barrel shank, again with barrel in same set up perfectly concentric to the bore.
9. when threads are finished and proven to fit the recut threads of the receiver I bring in the three finger steady rest. With the chamber end again supported by the live center and the barrel spinning at anywhere from 150 to 300 rpms(not important here) I will adjust the three support fingers of the steady rest to ride on the freshly cut barrel threads which again are perfectly concentric to the axis of the bore.
10. With the steady rest supporting the chamber end of the barrel contacting the barrel threads, the tail stock is pulled back and the 60 degree live center is replaced by my JGS floating reamer holder.
11. The desired chambering reamer is fitted with the live pilot bushing that is 0.0002" or less fit to the bore and the initial chamber cut is taken roughly to the point where the full diameter of the reamer shoulder is cutting.
12. Then I replace the chamber reamer and floating reamer holder with a drill chuck with a cobalt drill bit that is roughly 20 to 30 thou smaller then the shoulder of the chambering reamer. A shallow cut of 0.300' is taken with the drill bit and then the chambering reamer/floating reamer holder is put back in the tail stock and I take cuts from 25 to 50 thou per pass with the chambering reamer until the drill cut is removed.
13. This process is repeated until the chamber is cut to the proper headspace. In this way, the bulk of the chamber is drilled out but the reamers live pilot always has full contact with the bore to insure a perfectly concentric chamber to the bore.
As you can tell, never once have I mentioned anything about cutting the crown and that is because it is the very last thing I do on the barrel and I can not think of another smith that would cut a crown first and then do the threading and chambering of the barrel.
Also, I have never seen a barrel blank that had anything but a saw cut muzzle with generally a slight 60 degree cut for a center support surface.
Personally, if I ordered a custom barrel blank and it came with a partially cut chamber, at least one long enough that a live piloted chambering reamer would not get full contact before beginning cutting the chamber, I would return it instantly because if your live pilot reamer will not be supported, your dependant on the concentricity of the original cuts in the barrel and I would not put my name in the hands of others.
Just my opinion, to look at that barrel, it looks like its a barrel that has been finished, ready for installation and then had the barrel threads chopped off and then shipped to you.
If it is not the contour you ordered and not the twist you ordered, return the barrel and get what you ordered, simple as that. If they do not work with you to get you what you ordered, there are alot of other world class barrel makers around to choose from!!
Just my opinion, take it for what you will, just another opinion but I would not be happy to receiver a barrel like that and from what you say I would return it instantly for what you ordered. That is the point of ordering a custom barrel by the way, getting exactly what you want.
Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.
It looks like a # 7 or #8 target taper, and it has had
the tenon cut off if there is less than 3" of strait
barrel on the chamber end.
The only reason for doing this is to change thread sizes
(Remington to Mauser for example) or to fix a screw up.
So it looks like this barrel was completed at one time
because the crown is the last stage of the machining
of a barrel.
It should be usable .
J E CUSTOM
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you and 50 driver for taking the time to reply and my answers,It looks like my suspicions were true and I have been messed about and lied to for the past 4 months,I even had to order my own reamer as the smith didn't even do that,here is the quote that the "smith" sent me when I asked the very same questions which the both of you have clearly answered
<font color="red"> partly contoured, you didn't give me time to Finnish it, you said you would get it finished your end, which included profiling threading and chambering.
its in the twist you requested,, which was i believe 1 in 9.
its not used at all. its been roughed to length, centerer reamed one end with my throat positioning, chamber start reamer.
If you aren't happy with it send the ****** back to me and i'll use it for something else. </font>
Not bad considering I ordered a 12 twist and the "smith" assured me he had sent my old barrel which was a Krieger #3 to Loather to have an exact copy done,So between all the lies and excuses Iam back to stage 1 waiting for the correct barrel to arrive and I have been left with this thing he has sent me
Not really good service form a so called master gunsmith
Pete Lincoln of Roe Dale Precision Rifles
he has neither ordered the correct contoured barrel ordering a #7 instead of a #3 he has denied I ordered a 12 twist,OK say lets assume I did order a 9 twist as he Pete Lincoln has stated <font color="red"> BUT I DIDN'T I ORDERED A 12 </font> This has even been proved wrong as the barrel Peter has sent is a 10 twist,so this is becoming quite clear that he has tried to fob me off with a totally wrong barrel which he probably was stuck with.
Another strange thing the reamer I ordered myself I may add as Peter Lincoln hadn't even ordered it when I spoke to the reamer company asking why the reamer hadn't been delivered,I was informed Mr Lincoln had not placed an order for my reamer,when I questioned Mr Lincoln of this he said the company was hard to get hold of on the phone so he e mailed the order,
Strange I got them on the phone within 2 mins first try and my order was placed and paid for within 10 mins,and have since been in contact with the reamer company and have got through every single time,they even went to the trouble of sending me ANOTHER reamer direct to Mr Lincoln as he stated he hadn't received the first one,which later on about a week or so later it turned up,So he also owes me the second reamer which i haven't been sent yet
I have since re ordered the correct contoured barrel through Col48 who has not been it the game very long and has informed me within 20 mins of placing the order Loather do not supply a 12 twist in 6mm only a 8.9 or 10 and after doing a little homework I have gone for a 10
So after this harrowing experience with Pete Lincoln Master Gunsmith which i might add has cost me over £50 in phone calls trying to find out where my rife was as i wanted it back as he didn't do the job on time it took over 2.5 weeks to arrive and again more excuses than a politician at election time,Germany must have the worst courier system in the world,as i also know someone who will remain nameless who has been waiting 5 months for a bush from Mr Lincoln to arrive which has been sent out 2 separate bushed which has never arrived to this day
I have been speaking to quite a lot of his dissatisfied costumers in the UK and they all seem to get the same excuses
I would like to point out through my own personal experiences with this company to anyone who may be thinking of using him PLEASE THINK AGAIN
The standard response when questioning Mr Lincoln when you finally get hold of him is
<font color="red">I run 2 jobs,Iam only part time gun smith,at the price's i do the jobs for what do you expect,I build accurate rifles at half the cost of everyone else </font>
Pete Lincoln if you do happen to read this no one is disputing you cannot eventually put together an accurate rifle,I have ran my own very very successfull company for 19 years and I have never in all my time dealt with anyone who has given as many excuses as you have given me being wrong or right also may I add there is no excuse for poor and no communication and being the cheapest person on the market does not give you the right or authority to keep other peoples rifles on your shelf way way over the estimated time.The reason why you got my job was not because you are the cheapest it was because you stated categorically that you would complete the re barrel straight away as soon as ALL component parts arrives,2 months after deliver of all parts still no job done.
Iam sure Pete Lincoln there will be many people reading this post who would like to see a full explanation how this situation has come to this point
I would like to add I have not paid for the barrel he has sent wrong BUT Iam quite prepared for Mr Lincoln to have the barrel collected at his expense as soon as he refunds me the £150 he has owed me for over 1 year plus the extra reamer which he has,I will forget my shipping costs to him of my rifle which was £47 and all my phone charges trying to track him down