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Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

 
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  #15  
Old 06-03-2009, 04:53 PM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

I have been in and around the shooting sports for quite some time. I totally disagree that an after market barrel from the respected makers in the industry is a crap shoot. Any Krieger, Lija, Obermeyer, boarder, etc has excellent potential to be a barn burner... Manufacturers like ER Shaw on the other hand are a crap shoot. If any of these makers barrels do not shoot less than a 1/4 MOA then you should be looking at your setup and tuning of the unit. Any action / barrel combo that for me will not shoot sub 1/8 MOA at 100 after tuning is not a combo to play with plain and simple.

What I have not seen any mention of here is pushed versus pulled buttons, multiple buttoned, and cleaning concerns... One big thing to remember with a buttoned barrel is that the internal dimensions are changed in a cold forging style process thus the internal dimensions are changed and loads of stress is induced. This is why heat or cryogenic stress relieving is essential where as say a krieger cut barrel has virtually no stress induced and has a truer internal dimension as it is simply easier to control the cut versus the potential dance of a button.

After many years of playing in this arena, I have come full circle and shoot mainly rimfire these days. As for my barrel opinions in the rimfire arena I would much rather have a well manufactured barrel that if anything has a slight increase in twist in the last 2" - 3" of the tube and has a funneled effect, thus insuring a good seal and final launch out of a perfect crown. This is also the only arena that I have found "production" barrels to be as accurate as the after markets... You will be hard pressed to put together a combo that will out preform any, Anschutz, Feinwerkbau, or Hammerli fresh off the factory floor.

As a closing note, you may want to go check out or buy the book "The Story of Pope's Barrels" by Ray Smith. There are a number of things I learned from that book and by having the honor of talking with Karl Kenyon, and Larry Moore in my early days...

Last edited by sighlous; 06-03-2009 at 05:00 PM.
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  #16  
Old 06-03-2009, 06:23 PM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

Quote:
Originally Posted by sighlous View Post
Any action / barrel combo that for me will not shoot sub 1/8 MOA at 100 after tuning is not a combo to play with plain and simple.
Let me guess,, 6PPC, ~21" heavy barrels, standard turn-key point blank system..

Could you imply it in 6 to 7mm, with enough energy to hurt something other than closeup targets?
Could you do it with each of a handful of barrels on the same gun?
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  #17  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:35 PM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
Let me guess,, 6PPC, ~21" heavy barrels, standard turn-key point blank system..

Could you imply it in 6 to 7mm, with enough energy to hurt something other than closeup targets?
Could you do it with each of a handful of barrels on the same gun?
Now that was funny!

I guess we have been out done. We should all give up since we cannont maintain sub 1/8 MOA in our "finely tuned" hunting rifles.

This is a "hunting" site isnt it?

I myself have shot some great groups in my life. 4 or 5 exceptional ones. Some under 1/8 MOA. That doesnt make my rifles 1/8 MOA rifles. 1/8 MOA isnt neccesary for a long range hunting rifle either. An 1/8 MOA at 100 yard rifle doesnt always add up to even so much as a 1 MOA rifle at 1000 yards. So what the he!! is the point of a .125 MOA at 100 rifle other than at a bench rest competition?

I dont think I have ever seen a sub 1/8 MOA rifle built in a way that was practical in the least for hunting purposes. Lilja, Krieger or other wise. There are good barrels but not that good.
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Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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  #18  
Old 06-04-2009, 08:52 AM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Eichele View Post
I dont think I have ever seen a sub 1/8 MOA rifle built in a way that was practical in the least for hunting purposes. Lilja, Krieger or other wise. There are good barrels but not that good.
My sentiment as well..
But maybe we are just really, really, really, really unlucky.

Let's see:
1/8moaBARREL + 1/4moaREALLYBADLUCK = just under 1/2moa
Krieger, Border, Lija, Pacnor, Broughton, Schneider, Browning, Wilson,,
Yep, sums it up for me.


When this changes, maybe I'll be moon-walking around a perfect little world, free of the wicked spell scorching my hide.
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  #19  
Old 06-04-2009, 10:43 AM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

I started this thread and we have to remember this is a hunting site. not benchrest. Just like a good tactical rifle you want to be as accurate as possible but it just has to work every time in the field. It also has to be practical. I believe that long range hunting and benchrest have their differnces and are similar. I believe that a hunter like me can learn something from all types of shooters. I thank all of you for your input.
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  #20  
Old 06-04-2009, 01:25 PM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

I'd like to be one of the unlucky ones that ends up with a few of those 1/4 moa turds on my hunting rifles. I don't care which manufacturer it comes from, or if they're labeled "seconds". I'll be watching the classified adds in case some show up there in a weight and contour I can possibly carry around while hunting.
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  #21  
Old 06-04-2009, 04:16 PM
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Re: Do I care how a barrel is made? or do I

I think you guys are taking me a bit out of context, although that is fine... What I stated was 1/8 MOA at 100 yards not 1000. I would love to consistently shoot sub 5" groups at 1000 with my non bench / target guns but that just does not happen often.

You have to bear in mind that with shooting all things are not linear, so that rifle that shoots 1/8 moa at 100 has the potential to shoot 1/8 moa groups at 1000 but probably not. No matter how you cut it if you are long range shooting / hunting a 10.5 to 21" group ie 1 to 2 moa is not going to offer you the luxery of being less than precise on breaking the shot.

And no I am not talking about 6ppc's either with 21" 2-3" diameter boat anchor tubes. Nor am I talking about benchguns at all. From my bench guns I expect 1/8 moa past 600, and expect to see roughly 1/8 to 1/4 moa from my 6BRX at 1000. Take a look at the article on 6mmbr.com about Schatz setting the 1k record, as he did not use a completely specialized rig for bench, instead something comparable to a good varmiter.

What I am talking about here is the classic varmint / target / sniping style setup... If you are looking to bag a moose at 1000+ or any of the big 5 you may as well go to a 50bmg. Hathcock and Furlong have both proven that to be effective past a mile on humans... What I normally use for long range big game and playing is a 338 Lapua and a 300 Lapua that I built-up that is based off the 338 but spits out 7.62's.

To reiterate the big thing that I think a lot of you that criticised my demands on barrles are ignoring is that I set that standard at 100 yards and that I DO NOT expect that 1/8 MOA to be linear to all ranges...
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