Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 03-15-2013, 11:42 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern Colorado
Posts: 608
Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

Originally Posted by BrentM View Post
Savage model 116, accustock. This model has two screws instead of the wedge style. I torqued front and rear to 40" lbs like the manual says. I did remove the base and reinstall with loctite etc, mounts rechecked.

Several weeks back my scope was bumped and was off 6" to the right at 100.

I have a aluminum weaver picatinny 1 piece base. It seems to be built fine enough, it is my first base of this sort. It does not have a recoil lug, no moa, and does not show signs of wear from the mounts etc. Mounts are Leupold PRW steel. I DID NOT check the base last night to see if the screws were loose.

6 inches off?? That's a good bump.

What do you suppose got bent to give you 6 MOA error?
PRW rings?
Aluminum base? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Not all rifles can get by with aluminum scope rings and base.
Some rifles are in for a severe duty kind of life.
My coyote rifles get babied and stroked. No problems.
My elk rifle gets beat with a stick. No aluminum on this one.
Reply With Quote
  •   #9  
    Unread 03-15-2013, 01:35 PM
    Platinum Member
    Join Date: Jan 2013
    Location: Meridian, Idaho
    Posts: 1,550
    Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

    Actually the scope never hit anything it was the barrel. The rifle was in my back pack and I knocked it over in the dark while getting ready to hike up the mountain. The barrel smacked the pavement! Yeah, irritated at that little moronic move for sure. I liken it to whacking the barrel from the side with a hammer. Pretty jolting I would imagine but I wouldn't think enough to damage a night force. Unfortunately there are no NF rails in town. I have to order it on line. In fact there are no steel picatinny style basis anywhere around here for a long action savage.

    I bought this scope used off LRH from a guy in MT. He said is was safe queen and it looked like it. I will have to install another scope and see what happens. I ran out of time and light to swap last night as I thought I had a working load and 2.25" of drop from 100 to 200. That all got thrown out with my last group that wound up being 2.5" higher. good grief.

    The drop works out to be right around 2975 to 3025. Of course I can't rely on that at this point since elevation is all screwed up.
    Reply With Quote

    Unread 03-16-2013, 04:48 AM
    Gold Member
    Join Date: May 2009
    Posts: 746
    Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

    Originally Posted by BrentM View Post
    Shot from a bench rest. It was clean and shot the tighter at 7 thru 10 rounds. 15-19 were at 200 on right side, and 20-25 on the left side.

    Lapau brass (same lot, shot 2x), neck sized with .002 bushing, concentricity corrected, berger VLD hunting 140, .075 off lands, retumbo powder. Action screws torqued properly, etc.

    The fact that the rounds moved up 4.5" at 200 yards with exact same load doesn't surprise you guys? I am very surprised it started shooting high all of the sudden. rounds 15-19 are by a ruler 4.5" lower. That is just weird. I didn't touch the scope settings yet, not even the power, just the parallax.

    Before I suspected the scope issue or some other issue I could group this rifle fine at 200 with less than .5 MOA. However, I kept having a verticle flyer issues here and there and point of impact changes that made no sense. This is after a scope bump.

    Another thing that surprised was the last round (25) impact that was 2.25" lower than 20 and 21.

    I have talked to Night Force and their customer service so far has been very good. It will be 4 weeks before any repair could be made so I am still trying to figure out if it is my base, mounts, scope, rifle, me etc. before sending it in. I am not sure I see any issue from shooter point of view but you never know I guess. Put it this way, I have never had a POI issue changes of 4.5" in my life based on technique. When I was shooting this rifle at 800 yards I consistently grouped .5 MOA....4x4 groups from a bipod and rear bag. A bench would have been better.
    The fact that it started shooting higher could be the change in how you shoot at 200 , moving the gun in the rest or whatever . It just seems strange that you can produce a no vertical group at 100 and then the gun goes crazy at 200 . Sure it could be bedding but it could also be something simple like you are digging the sling studs into the bags or the rear bag system is no good .
    Or you are not controlling recoil.
    The only way to rule things out is to only change one thing at a time.
    I tend to agree with Sully2 when he says practise at shorter range and perfect a good style and when the three shot groups get nice and tight branch out to a longer range , but keep the same technique going .
    I once helped a guy In Germany took months and dozens of emails but in the end a photo of his gun setup at the range told me what the problem was .
    Rear bunny eared bag backwards , Makeshift wooden bench was useless , sling studs still on the gun and digging in .
    It is usually what they don't tell you that is the problem.
    Changing the scope is always a standard check that you can do just to be sure it's ok . Scopes can do some weird things for sure. I would be surprised if a NF is not holding zero but you never know .
    Did you dial the elevation knob to shoot at 200 ?
    For the zero to move 6 inch off at 100 after a bump then something had to give . Maybe the erector tube springs are gone in the scope .
    Reply With Quote
    Unread 03-16-2013, 06:27 AM
    Platinum Member
    Join Date: Jan 2008
    Location: Northeast
    Posts: 3,424
    Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

    Brent, I have been reading your posts for quite some time and the results you have gotten out of this rifle right out to 1000 yards has been very consistent with sub MOA performance. I think occasional flyers are generally due to uncontrollable, or random factors and usually not significant. The results you show seem to indicate either a mechanical issue, or less likely, a sight/target acquisition issue. I would look first. to the effects of the drop that knocked your POI off by 6" at 100 yards.
    The hit to the barrel in pavement could very well have effected the bedding system, or even the barrel alignment, possibly the scope or mount, but that's usually is a result of a direct hit to the scope. I would check the axial alignment of the barrel to the scope, and the alignment of the action to the bedding system. This can be done a few ways but the easiest is to use a EXD Verticle Reticle Alignment device that fairly inexpensive and available from Brownells. This device will show barrel alignment, not bedding/ receiver alignment. If this is the problem, it seems to accentuate at longer ranges. The barrel on the LRH is not a very heavy barrel, and the bedding design, not the most secure. A heavy blow can knock it out.
    The other cause of the type of target results you show a less likely in your case but I have seen it happen even with very experienced shooters, specially those that hunt more then paper shoot. Make sure that your eye is focusing on the crosshair and not the target. It's easy to put both in the same plane. This can definitely cause groups to erode at longer distances and it can happen subconsciously particularly when frustrated. This is the most common cause of poor scores during egg shoots when the rifle produces excellent results at 100 yards.
    Just some thoughts.

    "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready"-T. Roosevelt
    Reply With Quote
    Unread 03-16-2013, 08:35 PM
    Gold Member
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Location: Charleston, WV
    Posts: 931
    Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

    All good suggestions here. I only have two.

    1 being that the LRH barrels are not that heavy. Did the rifle attached to your pack possibly hit with enough force to possibly have ever so slightly bent the barrel? Even a tiny bit not noticeable to the eye could have terrible effects

    2 if you still suspect the scope. Set up a target at 50 yards. Any hand load should shoot somewhat decent at that range but the 56.5 seemed promising. Now do a 20 MOA box test. The load and rifle should be accurate enough at 50 yards to take the gun and shooter almost put of the equation so you are only testing scope tracking
    Reply With Quote
    Unread 03-16-2013, 09:09 PM
    Gold Member
    Join Date: Apr 2012
    Location: Terre Haute In.
    Posts: 693
    Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

    Brent, I'm just throwin this out there, did you look the crown over and make sure it wasn't damaged in any way? Also you might try just taking it out of the stock completly and then reinstall.

    Reply With Quote
    Unread 03-17-2013, 07:57 PM
    Platinum Member
    Join Date: Jan 2013
    Location: Meridian, Idaho
    Posts: 1,550
    Re: Diagnosing Issue still- advice please

    Greyfox I agree that the shooter is still part of the equation. I did not shoot any paper this weekend as we were out wolf hunting. On the way off the mountain today I ranged a rock target at 942 yards. I wanted my buddy to shoot it and see how it performed for him. I dialed the scope, left wind at zero for now, and squeezed. Sent a second round. Both rounds impacted within 3 inches of each other, verticle was dead on, and a foot right.Wind was left to right. I had him shoot and he pretty much repeated my strikes but with larger grouping. It was his first time past 600.
    Reply With Quote


    Thread Tools
    Display Modes

    All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:04 PM.

    Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
    All content ©2010-2015 Long Range Hunting, LLC