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custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

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Unread 05-26-2003, 12:56 PM
Gold Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 528
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

Bullet runout????Has your ammo been checked using a runout guage??.sakofan....

[ 05-26-2003: Message edited by: sakofan ]
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Unread 05-26-2003, 01:00 PM
Posts: n/a
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

Is there a pattern to the shot thrown out of the group? Vertically out or horizontally out, or random to all 4 quadrants?
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Unread 05-26-2003, 01:49 PM
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 27
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

Have you bedded the HS stock? They claim they don't need to be bedded, but they will shift POI if not bedded. especially in a Mag.
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Unread 05-26-2003, 02:26 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,459
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

Any consistency to where the flyer goes or do your composite groups look like a pattern with a central group?

Consider: Bedding, rolling during recoil, powder and pressure spikes, concentricity of ammo, over sized throat/freebore, scope and mount looseness, flinching?

For the first while, I like to shoot over a chronie so that I can see if any flyers are due to vel/pressure spikes or drops. That way i can mark the case and refire. If the flyer persists, then the case gets pitched. Do your load development with fireformed/neck sized brass only. Measure runout and correct if necessary.

Measure the fired brass before sizing and bullet seating to track down any problems you may have during the loading process.

The rest is straight forward. Good luck with your quest.

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Unread 05-26-2003, 02:55 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 453
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

Gentlemen, the cases are sized neck only in a wilson die that has a .334 bushing. The brass, remington of course, is running at around .013-.014" neck thickness (as I havn't cleaned the necks up yet) but they are within .001" case-to-case. The bushing seems to be maybe .0005" in variance around it's internal surface (as measured with the rear of the caliper and keeping tension while rotatng the bushing) Could this variance be something?

The barrel is NOT bedded with a pad, which as I stated, I am thinking is incorrect. The stock is the Tactical HS model, so it is nice and wide at the front, but that may not mean much.

There is bedding along the sides of the action, but without removing the stock, I am betting there is none under the action (which it would need if there were a barrel pad)

The primer pockets are done with a drill and sinclairs uniformer, and they shine like a mirror. The cases are deburred and chamfered. Runout is no more than .002" max, with only an occasional .003" on the RCBS casemaster.

[ 05-26-2003: Message edited by: JustC ]
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Unread 05-26-2003, 04:02 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,459
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

I would look at the bedding and redo. Even if there is bedding under the action, it may not have been done properly and not actually touching the action. Try loosening the action screws and see if the action springs back. Also check to see that the action screws have not been he-man tightened. Firm hand pressure is all that is needed.

Are the bullets touching the lands? Can you get a chamber cast made? What type of powder are you using? Primer? Try shooting over a chronie.

your gear sounds top drawer and should not be causing these flyers. Check the volume of the brass to ensure that there isn't a few that is overly large or small. Just pour in some very fine powder like H870- tap the case to settle and then dump into the next one. If the volumes are the same, the powder will settle very nicely at the top of the neck. Haven't found a problem with my factory brass yet.

Finally, do you have a scope with a proven track record. Sometimes even the best fail internally. Ensure that all mounts are nice, tight and straight.

Have you tried shooting the rifle without the muzzle brake. Not pleasant but if the brake is not concentric with the bore, will cause flyers. Also check the diameter of the "muzzle" on the brake. The bullet should not touch the sides/bore.

I have had a brake that was so tightly machined that you could see traces of copper on the edges of the brake. Good thing this one was on straight. A little opening up and voila, end of problem.

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Unread 05-26-2003, 04:25 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 2,539
Re: custom rifle showing funky groups,.....HELP GUYS!!!!

When you say "pad", if you're talking about a point on the forend that would contact the barrel for support... it would more than likely cause worse problems than help anything, even with a heavy barrel. It could help "maybe" with a very light contour bbl if freefloated it's inconsistant vertically. The action needs to be bedded full length front to rear IMHO. Bedding should not contact sides or front of the recoil lug... bbl either.

Were you cleaning the bbl between shots while breaking it in?
How many go into one hole before you get a flier?
Does the bbl get up to the same temp when it throws a flier?

Sounds like it's too early to tell really.
If you had shot 20 rounds or so through it, two or three times, and it always threw fliers without considering cleaning effects, charge wt changes, etc, then you could narrow it down a bit easier.

Maybe you already broke in the barrel and cleaning and charge wt changes weren't entered into the equasion at all...
Brent Moffitt
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