Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


Reply

Custom Advice

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-30-2004, 03:14 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alaska
Posts: 39
Custom Advice

I need some advice on building a gun.
I am looking to purchase or have built a custom hunting rifle that weights 7 to 8 lbs, is stainless, has a muzzle brake, synthetic stock, detachable magazine, has a fluted match grade barrel, I would like it teflon coated, push feed, the magazine needs to hold at least three, have a three position safety and I would like this gun to shoot 1/2 moa. The gun is going to be used for Alaskan moose and brown bear so I'm wanting to have the gun chambered in .358 STA. There are quite a few reasons I would like to go with the STA but if I were to run into concernes with accuracy I would probably consider one of the fast 38's. Accuracy and dependibility are very important to me. This will be a gun that I do 90% of my hunting with over the next 25 years. I was looking at buying a gun from H-S Precision but I have found a few articles were people are saying that you should expect more than 1 moa from a $2500 gun and that you can build the same gun for less. Hill Country sells a comparable gun and they have the same accuracy garantee; I'm thinking the reason might be the weight of the gun and then maybe they are just giving them selves a little room to move. Well, I've been looking into mach grade barrels from Lilja, Black Star, Rock Creek, and Shilen. I haven't found much on actions, Nesika and Montana Rifleman; I'm sure there are alot more. What I have come up with so far is that Shilen will install a muzzle brake and match the barrel to the action and Mcmillan will install the barrelled action in the stock and add the teflon coating. When you get this far you are at $1800 and that doesn't leave a whole lot for the action and still save money. As you can tell by reading this I am not a gun smith and I don't know of any at the moment that I would feel confident with. Is a 7-8 lbs hunting rifle chambered in 358 sta that shoots 1/2 moa an unrealistic goal for $2000-2500? Thanks for any replies.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2004, 03:29 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 155
Re: Custom Advice

Give Kirby allen.....aka Fiftydriver a shout.

Kirby Allen
Allen Precision Shooting
kballen@3rivers.net

He is currently building a rifle for me, tell him Kyle Holcomb sent you.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2004, 05:05 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,831
Re: Custom Advice

Radunn,

First off welcome to LRH!

Well, here is my opinion, take it for what you will. If your talking about a 7 to 8 lb bare rifle I would say this is certainly doable. If your talking about a rifle that is ready to hunt that will weight this much, you are cutting things pretty tight.

Lets look at your rifle specs. If you are not wedded to the 358 STA, I feel there are other rounds that offer much more and that are much easier on you financially. I personally feel the best caliber for Alaska is a big 338 Magnum. The 338 RUM is one of the most potent 338s on the market that will fit in a conventional action with three rounds in the mag. I am also nto a fan of box magazines, just another thing to looks or have fail when you need them.

Again, these are just my opinions and I am not tryign to talk you out of anything.

While the 358 STA is a hell of a thumper at close to moderate range, it really is not a round designed for +300 yards shooting at big game. If you will be using this rifle for nearly all of your future hunting, a 338 will offer much flatter trajectory, plenty of energy and bullet weight for even the big bears and it also has the option for bullets designed for lighter game such as deer or extreme range bullets as well.

The short answer is that it is certainly possible to build a light weight big game rifle capable of 1/2 moa grouping. Personally I would want to build around a Rem 700 action if this level of accuracy was desired in a big bore.

Any stainless steel receiver is going to cost a little money. Again Rem 700 stainless actions are about the lowest price for the quality(after tuning) youcan get and they still run around $580 for just the new unfired action.

TO get everything you want I feel will run you in the $2000 range but for that amount of money, I would certainly expect groups substantially smaller then 1 moa.

The box magazine for the big long rounds will be the only problem unless you go to a custom action and then over 1/2 your cost will be in the receiver alone.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2004, 11:07 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alaska
Posts: 39
Re: Custom Advice

Thank you for the reply,
I should have been more clear, a 7-8 lb gun would be bare. I think you are probably correct about the magazine; a person would more that likely have to spend a lot of money to get a reliable one.
I don't think I'm wedd to the STA just yet but I have wanted one for a long time. I agree with John Taylor's theory of "knock out" value that he wrote about in his book "African Rifles and Cartridges". A bigger diameter bullet with the same speed and weight as one with a smaller diameter will use up more of it's available energy passing through the animal. Is the difference between a 338 and a 358 going to be noticable; I don't know. I'm not too worried about the smaller bullets, I have a sheep and caribou gun. If I were to have a 358 made I don't see anything smaller than a 225gr bullet coming out of it.
It's interesting that you bring up the RUM, I have been doing some reading on that one also. A person does have more options with the 338. Most people I've called don't have a reamer for the STA.
I don't understand why you said the 358 is not a round designed for +300 yards shooting at big game? At 400 yards with a 225 gr bullet the 358 will drop almost an inch less that a 340 Weatherby and with a 250 gr bullet the 358 will drop more that 2 inches less that the 340. It is faster than the Lapua with a 250gr bullet, 50-80 fps faster than the 338 RUM shooting a 225gr bullet, and about 90 fps faster shooting a 250gr. What am I missing? Also, what did you mean by extreme rang bullets?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-31-2004, 10:01 AM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,831
Re: Custom Advice

Radunn,

With this rifle weight I would say you could certainly reach the performance levels you want.

I to am a believer in the TKO ideals. Being a big bore handgun hunter I have seen the results of heavy, big bore bullets traveling at relatively slow velocities. They are impressive for sure.

Still in small bore rifles, anything under 375, I much prefer Sectional Density over shear frontal area.

My comments about the ranging ability of the 358 STA were based on bullets which I feel are appropriate for that round and the game this size of round is best suited for, that being 250 gr at the minimum and up to the 300 to 310 gr pills. This is where I feel the 358 really begins to shine in performance, rivaling and exceeding the 375 H&H by a fair margin.

It is true the lighter bullets can be driven quite fast in the STA. They have relatively small baring surfaces which combined with the large bore size, allows the use of heavy charges of faster burning powder which will create some impressive velocities.

My concern with the 225 gr .358" bullets is that they have a relatively low S.D. value at .251. For thin skinned game this is certainly more then enough but for heavy game such as elk and moose and any dangerous game, I feel this is to low.

Comparing this to a 225 gr .338" bullet with a S.D. of .281 given similiar velocity and bullet construction, the 338 will far out penetrate the 358 everytime, especially on tough angles and with shots though heavy bone are required.

I personally like S.D. values in the .280 or higher range for heavy game or dangerous game, the 250 gr .358" bullet meets this level but the same bullet weight in the 338 has a S.D. of .313.

The TKO formula is for non expanding bullets so it really is not ovely useful for expanding soft nose designs. It can be somewhat useful when comparing bullets of similar design but it does not take in the huge variable of bullet expansion.

Again, the 358 is a great caliber, it is just best served with bullets in the 250 to 300 gr range then the lighter 225 gr bullets, especially in a round that can produce this level of velocity.

As for bullets, for extreme range shooting the 338 has several bullets designed for shooting out to 1000 yards ranging from 250 to 350 gr in weight.

The 358 does not have any bullets designed for this type of shooting. This may not be a concern to you at all if you do not intend to do this type of shooting.

Still, the 338 family of bullets has received vastly more testing and research as far as accuracy and consistancy goes. This generally shows up in the average accuracy a roudn will produce. It will only shoot as well as the bullets used and on average, I would say 338 bullets are more consistant then 358 bullets.

Again, for strictly big game hunting, this is a moot point.

Good Shooting!!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-31-2004, 12:15 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alaska
Posts: 39
Re: Custom Advice

Kirby,
Thank you for the reply, that makes sense and gives me something to think about. It does make more sense to go with a more accurate and versitile round if a person is going to have a gun built that will shoot 1/2 moa. I suppose it depends on what I plan to use the gun for. Any thoughts as to why they didn't blow the case out on the 7mm STW as was done with the STA? Looks like that would have been a real screemer and the cases would have been about the same.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-31-2004, 04:46 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,831
Re: Custom Advice

Radunn,

When Mr. Simpson was pushing the STW in Shooting Times, this was that largest accepted case for use with the 7mm bore.

Personally I feel that he thought this case was already to large for a commercial round because of barrel life and this was his goal, to get his round legitimized.

Interestingly enough, Remington bought up the rights to the 7mm STW and made it a factory option, then just a few short years later they basically threw it in the garbage in favor of their new huge 7mm RUM.

The 7mm STW Improved will certainly add some case capacity and a bit of performance but not all that much. In a factory round, I do not feel the big factories would even have considered a round with extreme minimum taper. THe reason is that the chambers need to be polished to a mirror finish or tight extractions will occur with top loads and they want no part of that.

This only takes a few extra minutes and paying some attention to the chamber polishing. I have found this to be true with my Allen Magnum rounds.Most of the rifle I build, you can get by with a chamber polished to a 600 grit finish. With the AM rounds, you have to go to at least an 800 grit finish and then it is wise to get out some crocus cloth and give it a final shine. The reason is because of the 0.007" taper over the length of the body of the AM rounds, very little.

With the 358 STA, I believe Mr. Simpson never intended to get this round into production. I also feel he wanted more of a shoulder so he sharpened it up and blew out the diameter as such.

Even think of a 358 RUM???

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Custom Advice
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Custom Rifle Advice. jdm5267 Long Range Hunting & Shooting 7 08-13-2010 11:33 AM
Advice On a Custom Rifle. jdm5267 Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 9 08-12-2010 09:01 PM
Custom Rifle advice jbo Long Range Hunting & Shooting 16 05-14-2009 09:02 PM
Custom Barrel, Need Advice bebberson Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 2 01-22-2009 11:06 PM
Need advice on custom gun david3544 Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 3 01-23-2008 09:47 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC