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bullet/case neck run out

 
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  #8  
Old 09-28-2004, 08:26 AM
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Re: bullet/case neck run out

Jon
What I was saying is that basically I have the same problem, and neither Wilson or redding neck sizing/bushing dies seemed to have any effect on it. That is, they did not fix it. So now I'm looking into body die configurations, in hopes of finding something that will not offset my necks when sizing. I'm begining to think I need something cut with a chamber reamer.
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  #9  
Old 09-28-2004, 03:11 PM
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Re: bullet/case neck run out

Roper and Mikecr, thanks for your replies.

I've thought some more about this problem and did some more reading and have done three things:

1) neck turn (I use Sinclairs 3000 turner and their special sizing mandrel beforehand.) a second time after firing. I was so careful the first time that I was amazed to see as much brass as came off the second turning. I did not adjust the cutter at all, in fact, when I saw how much brass was coming off I double checked to make sure the cutter was tight and hadn't moved.

2) Cleaned my dies extra carefully.

3) I chucked the expander rod in my drill press and at a slow speed used 800 then 1500 grit paper to polish it. Not too much, just a little. I did the same with the bullet seater, polishing the area when the seater contacts the bullet.

After FL sizing, all the cases (save one--which I'll probably end up pitching) had an average .001 runout some just a smidgen more some a smidgen less (using the Sinclair concentricity guage). (This is on a Rockchucker press with standard Redding dies with expander rod and shellholder floating and every bearing surface cleaned carefully. I clean and lube where the shellholder meets the ram so that it can float "easily".) After bullet seating the case neck runout varied just a bit more--anywhere from .00075 to .0015 with and average just a smidgen over .001. Bullet runout measured 1/16" in front of the case end was averaging just barely over .001 with a range of .00075 to .002. I think I can live with that. After all, this is just a hunting rig...

The expander opens the necks up to .304 (every single one exactly--outside is .335 exactly!) and my Accubonds measure just a hair under .308 so my necks are expanding .004 during the bullet seating operation. I'm wondering if there is anyone who can comment on this amount (.004) neck expansion (and associated neck tension)during the bullet seating operation?

Thanks,

Jon Denham
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  #10  
Old 09-28-2004, 10:17 PM
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Re: bullet/case neck run out

Jon Denham,
I have done exactly what you are doing,
if you are using a standard chamber you are
wasting your time neck turning infact you are
making matter's worse by making the neck
clearance greater. the best idea for a
standard chamber is to do a neck thickness
variance,use the correct size bushing to
minimally size your brass,then seat using
a redding,forster,wilson inline (BR) die to
keep from making matter's worse. I know that
neck turning is fun but it is counterproductive
in standard neck chamber's.
B

[ 09-28-2004: Message edited by: brian b ]
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  #11  
Old 09-29-2004, 07:25 AM
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Re: bullet/case neck run out

Brian, I would like to be sure what you consider a standard chamber. In your definition would a chamber cut to minimum SAMMI specs in a new Kreiger barrel be a standard chamber or are you talking about chambers in factory barrels ?
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  #12  
Old 09-29-2004, 09:04 AM
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Re: bullet/case neck run out

brian b,

Thanks for your comments. It's truly interesting how many different opinions there can be in the the shooting world. In this case, some qualified folks say neck turning will help in a factory rifle, some equally qualified folks say don't bother. You mentioned the brass getting worked (moved) more after neck turning in a factory chamber, which would happen of course. My sized, neck turned cases mic .335 at the neck while untouched sized cases mic .3365. Fired cases expand to a whopping .345! However, do you think this .0015 extra expansion caused by neck turning just enough to completely clean up the necks is detrimental enough to offset the greater concentricity and more equal neck tension I'm getting with neck turning? I'm not sure if it make any difference but ogives are right on the lands (I'm able to magazine feed these with a Wyatt's box modified to truly center feed every case instead of just the last one...BTW, Jerry Teo, this modified Wyatt's box is working just fine although my magazine capacity has dropped from 3 to 2. However, I sure like the huge bite the bolt gets on the casehead with the center feed box. Much more confident in feeding now with the slightly rebated rim of the UM.). As long as the neck is sealing I should be alright? I'm annealing every few firings to help the necks...

Thanks,

Jon Denham

[ 09-29-2004: Message edited by: Jon Denham ]
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In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?" Thomas Jefferson - Notes on the State of Virginia

www.wildsidesystems.com - Shelter for Your WildSide - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYwgo...&feature=g-upl
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  #13  
Old 09-30-2004, 09:25 PM
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Posts: 302
Re: bullet/case neck run out

Jon Denham,
You stated that your neck turned cases mic'd
.335 and after you shot them they were a
whopping .345
To put this into perspective say you go into
a department store to buy a new suit the
salesman measure's you and say's you are a
size 40 (your ammo) he say's the only size
he has is a size 44 (standard chamber) You
say I'll take it ,then to make it fit better
you go on a starvation diet (neck turning)
so you can be a size 39. It makes NO sense!!
Hunter66654 mentioned a minimun sammi spec.
that is the same as calling up a blind date
before you go to pick her up and she say's
I'M a small fat girl (oxymoron).
The point I am trying to make is what are
your goal's ,if you want the smallest runout
size your brass the minimum ammount possible
(the correct size bushing) but if your chamber is at least .010 larger than your
ammo it is a COMPLETE waste of time and
effort to neck turn,you might as well paint
your bullet's RED (because it look's fast).
the best thing to do for a standard chamber
is to get a redding S-die and get the right
bushing so you dont oversize your brass and
your runout will be acceptable.
If you really want to neck turn get a tight
neck chamber reamer so you are not wasting
your time.
roper mentioned that the B.R. guy's dont
check there runout that is true because
there chambers are only .002 at the biggest
over there ammo,if you only need to size .002
there is not much room to screw up,just touch
up the neck's and you are done.
If you need to size .010 you are really
putting pressure on the brass with standard
dies because they size them down (about .020
) then stretch them back out with the expander ball. (concentricity shot to %^&&.)
to put it in a nut shell if you have a
tight neck chamber turn the neck's to fit,
if you dont DONT
B
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2004, 05:57 AM
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Posts: 787
Re: bullet/case neck run out

Jon, If you turned your necks to .0145 thats is .029 add bullet dia and that is .337 less fired dia that leaves .008 so neck expands .004 each side now to see if it's worth the trouble I'd look for a black ring about 1/2 way down the neck and see if have thats even all the way around and if so that kind of know things are work. If not may want to turn necks to .015 or .0155 and see how they do or go more. You did alot of work on your existing dies but they didn't help you very much simple put your neck aligment is to the die and not the chamber if you make it to the chamber and your ojive are touching you get a pretty even jump with the bullets and lessen the chance of bullet distoration. If you marked the high side of that case used a set of inline dies loaded that round with the mark up your groups will be about the same without turning necks since your bullet distoration would be about the same(could do the same with regular diies). Br shooter mainly load from the neck up they know the body is concentric to the chamber as the neck so all they have to worry about is neck tension and seating depth. To me the trick is not the groups size but being able to shoot the same groups size every time. I don't want anyone to think my way is the only one some of us just get carried away. Good luck.
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