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best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

 
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  #22  
Old 05-14-2011, 12:25 PM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

Quote:
Originally Posted by backwoods83 View Post
Yeah I got a buddy that's still winning 1k IBS matches in heavy gun, in 300wm that has almost 3000 rounds through it, and is still doing well in light gun 1k with a 300wby at 1700+ rounds. A 308 win makes a real accurate, cheap shooting plinker and should be kept inside of 600 yrds on game to be reliable.
Im a 308 win shooter with a question.

If i change to a more frangible/delicate bullet like the A-max for past 600 yds shots could it extend the reliable killing distance to 800yds?

Assuming the match bullet like the Amax or VLD from Berger break apart and cause large diameter wound channel at sub 2000fps velocity???

Sorry to hijack..

Thanks.
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  #23  
Old 05-14-2011, 12:42 PM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

Bergers can do the trick in some cases at lower velocities but should have a impact velocity of 1800fps+.
Older lots of a-max will open down to about 1400 fps, the newer version with amp jackets should open at even lower speeds from what I've seen out to 300, they are highly frangible, I wouldn't reccommend using them inside of 300 unless its a ground hog or p dog.
The regular ole nosler ballistic tip works down to about 15-1600fps.

I still think the lower muzzle velocity of these bullet types large enough to have a good BC is going to be quite challenging at 800 yards, all I can say is practice all the time in all conditions so you can go for perfect shot placement and not be reckless.
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  #24  
Old 05-14-2011, 01:28 PM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

In my opinion the .308 win/7.62x51 mm is extremely undersized for big game hunting out past 350-400 yards. Don't get me wrong it is a great paper puncher out in the half mile distance, however it simply doesn't have the downrange energy to put a whollup on an elk, mule deer or even a whitetail. I truly believe that if the military had not committed so heavily to the .308 as a "sniper" round, due in large part to the mild recoil generated that it would not even be considered a long range round today. The military has been so concerned about recoil that people now are beginning to believe that even a .223/5.56x45mm is an excellent choice for self defense rifles. I think that a .223 is small for shooting at a little 145 lb whitetail doe, let alone a 220 lb person...
I may be in the minority here but I think that recoil is secondary to downrange terminal ballistics. I don't know any person who was actually injured from the recoil of even heavy magnum rifles. Yes there may be some discomfort for a moment, but the truth is if you simply shoot the rifle a lot, you will get over that little shoulder thump. People seem to be very worried about the ability to get a second shot of as soon as possible. How about making the first one count, and react accordingly to the developing situation?
I think that an appropriate first hunting rifle would be a .300 SAUM, .300 WSM, even the new ruger compact magnums are great for shooting a large mule deer or an elk out near 500 yards. These cartridges do not generate much more recoil than the .308 but the downrange energies are considerably larger.
I've seen a lot of big game animals killed with small caliber varmint rifles and they died just the same as ones shot with a .340 Weatherby. But if you have a choice I would go for a larger cartridge with more punch. Chances are you will be able to see a lot more game fall in their tracks, rather than having to try to follow a minimal blood trail for half a mile.
Please take any "advice" from me with a grain of salt. I realize that the .308 is a very established cartridge and I'm sure that I will always own a rifle chambered in this round. I just feel that a better platform is the AR-10, M-14 types of actual "combat" small arms. All of this is simply in my own humble opinion.

I hope this sparks some good conversation, and no matter what rifle you settle on, just try and get out shooting it as much as possible!

Travis Kamps
(406) 580-9700
travis.kamps@gmail.com
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  #25  
Old 05-14-2011, 04:37 PM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

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Originally Posted by longrangeschool View Post
I may be in the minority here but I think that recoil is secondary to downrange terminal ballistics. I don't know any person who was actually injured from the recoil of even heavy magnum rifles. Yes there may be some discomfort for a moment, but the truth is if you simply shoot the rifle a lot, you will get over that little shoulder thump. People seem to be very worried about the ability to get a second shot of as soon as possible. How about making the first one count, and react accordingly to the developing situation?
The big problem with heavy recoil is not what's felt on ones shoulder. It's the great amount of recoil that causes the rifle to move off the point of aim when the bullet's going down the barrel. Shooting accuracy and recoil are inverse to each other. After the bullet's left the barrel, recoil doesn't matter. This is why a .308's much easier to shoot accurately.

The above aside, the .308's a 400 yard gun for deer, 300 for elk and 100 for moose.....providing one can place the shot well.
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  #26  
Old 05-15-2011, 06:19 AM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
The big problem with heavy recoil is not what's felt on ones shoulder. It's the great amount of recoil that causes the rifle to move off the point of aim when the bullet's going down the barrel. Shooting accuracy and recoil are inverse to each other.
Agreed. To deal with recoil practice and technique are critical... and when you shoot a big game animal, generally you don't feel or hear the shot. At least I don't due to level of concentration and if it is a particularly big animal, there's probably a dose of adrenaline. ;) I'm a bit more pragmatic than some. If I am trying to shoot long range and I want to take down a big animal, I know that I am going to have to deal with and manage a certain level of recoil particularly with some calibers and really big animals. If I can't, then that defines to a degree what I can do.
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  #27  
Old 05-15-2011, 07:41 AM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

A rifle can be just as accurate either way you choose to shoot, (controlling recoil) or (free recoiling) its all in how you want to shoot.
I'm not telling anyone to just go out and do this, nor am I taking up for the little 308 because years ago I couldn't stand the idea of such a baby 30 cal but a 308 loaded with a 178 hornady bthp match will have 1450-1500fps and 850-865ftlbs remaining at 800 yards with a muzzle velocity of 2600 so it will drop a whitetail, pronghorn, muley, etc.... It would not be my first pick for that distance for sure but its doable, I know anyone on here wouldn't want to step out that far to prove this wrong. Personally I'd use a 300wm and if you controll recoil and feel that its to much that's why they make muzzle brakes. Oh and a Moose has thinner hide than an elk fyi.
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  #28  
Old 05-15-2011, 08:48 AM
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Re: best Long Range Caliber for big game! please look

Recoil is not an issue these days. With the quality muzzle brakes we have available today its a non factor. My 300 Allen Xpress can drive a 240 gr SMK to 3200 fps in a 10 lb rifle and produce less felt recoil then a 308 Win in a similiar weight rifle.

Muzzle blast will be the next complaint, again, we have such godo quality electronic hearing protection available to us at an affordable price, that is another non issue.

I am not a fan of the 308 personally. Not because of any problems with the chambering but simply because its generally used for uses far outside of its design specs. Inside 500 yards, it can be used to very good big game performance when used correctly. Past this, at least on larger deer and up sized game, its really underpowered. Not saying it will not get the job done for sure but its marginal at best. Not only in retained velocity but also in retained energy. Energy does not kill game directly but retained energy does the work that deforms a bullet and causes it to expand. The heavier the bullet will help with retained energy for sure but it also retards muzzle velocity.

No matter what you do, no matter what bullet you shoot or the velocity you get out of your 308, in my opinion, its a 500 yard max chambering for big game hunting. Just my opinion. Its not a bad round at all, just asked to do alot more work then its designed to do alot of the times.
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