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Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

 
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  #57  
Old 11-19-2011, 11:29 PM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

I didn't just jump on the Berger band wagon, it took quite a few kills before I would say I liked them, every time I load a new bullet I go back to the drawing board. Shoot some game close to see how it performs then work my way out till I've found where they work, no matter what bullet I'm loading. I even have a bullet trap that I can catch bullets in to get an idea of what to expect prior to going to the field.

I find Ridge Runners picks very odd, I've set out to get a Berger to do just that and I've failed in every case. We've shot 4 deer and 3 Antelope from under a 100yrds to over 500yrds with 60 gr Bergers clocking 3500fps from a 22-250. So far this year dad has put several Berger 140's from a 6.5 Sherman on deer and antelope, a nice buck took one this afternoon at 200+ yards and it poked a little hole in augured a one inch hole clean through his chest and blew a couple in hole out the back side, haven't see anything hold the 140 Berger we may yet see if an elk can hold one. I've only had two Bergers blow enough to not exit and I found the base and jacket under the of side of very dead elk hit with a 140 Berger from a 270 WSM starting out at 3300 fps, the second was shooting an antelope under 200 yrds with the 22-250 and placing the bullet on the point of the shoulder, blew a hole through the shoulder and took the top 2/3rds of the heart away before pooping out, again very dead animals.

I have no doubt a guy could get something bad to happen, I've had more than one brand of bonded or all copper bullets not get into the chest cavity on elk, heck I see it every year cutting elk. I don't believe there is a perfect bullet for everything, there is always a compromise somewhere but the trick is to understand it and shoot what bullet your using in the best manner for a clean kill.
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  #58  
Old 11-20-2011, 07:43 AM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

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Originally Posted by timmay View Post
I dont understand why everyone is praising the berger bullet that explodes for a hunting bullet? Why would anybody want a bullet to fragment upon impact and not penetrate very well along with a hundred pieces of fragments tearing through all directions?
Sounds like a great target or a man killer, but a very bad game round
As I stated in a prior post, I have had excellent performance and complete penetration on a fairly large sample of deer shot a ranges from 200-1000 yards. The only thing I can think of causing the variable results is something I experienced a several years ago with thin jacked , fast expanding bullets at high velocity in my 270wsm. And the Berger is thin jacketed, take a look at the dent in the bullet if seating pressure is too high. If you have a high velocity, combined with a fast twist and a rough bore, the bullet will leave the barrel in a weakened state and blow up on impact due to a weakened bullet case which actually occurs in the barrel. Its not the high impact velocity that causes the blow up, its the weakened bullet jacket. This is the first thing I thought when I looked at the pictures posted with the surface wounds. 3300 FPS out of a 6.5 with a fast twist imight be too much and turning the bullet into a grenade when it hits. I keep the velocities on my 6.5 with 140 VLD's at 2950 and it performs superbly at all ranges. There is a balance you have to reach if you want to take advantage of the down range ballistics of a VLD. I have not been able to get this balance with other hunting bullets in this caliber. I think the VLD formula works best with heavy, high BC , for caliber , at lower velocities. Just my opinion.
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  #59  
Old 11-20-2011, 09:45 AM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

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Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
As I stated in a prior post, I have had excellent performance and complete penetration on a fairly large sample of deer shot a ranges from 200-1000 yards. The only thing I can think of causing the variable results is something I experienced a several years ago with thin jacked , fast expanding bullets at high velocity in my 270wsm. And the Berger is thin jacketed, take a look at the dent in the bullet if seating pressure is too high. If you have a high velocity, combined with a fast twist and a rough bore, the bullet will leave the barrel in a weakened state and blow up on impact due to a weakened bullet case which actually occurs in the barrel. Its not the high impact velocity that causes the blow up, its the weakened bullet jacket. This is the first thing I thought when I looked at the pictures posted with the surface wounds. 3300 FPS out of a 6.5 with a fast twist imight be too much and turning the bullet into a grenade when it hits. I keep the velocities on my 6.5 with 140 VLD's at 2950 and it performs superbly at all ranges. There is a balance you have to reach if you want to take advantage of the down range ballistics of a VLD. I have not been able to get this balance with other hunting bullets in this caliber. I think the VLD formula works best with heavy, high BC , for caliber , at lower velocities. Just my opinion.
could have something there, my 6.5 gibbs is an 8 twist kreiger finished at 29.5", it does have more pressure issues being cut rifled over a button rifled barrel, the bergers (orange box hunting bullets) were running 3180 fps using retumbo, the berger match (yellow box) from previous years were running 3300 with re-22, however I have used the 140 a-max at up to 3340 fps with decent results. I don't know but I'm off to accubonds in the gibbs next.
RR
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  #60  
Old 11-20-2011, 09:51 AM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
As I stated in a prior post, I have had excellent performance and complete penetration on a fairly large sample of deer shot a ranges from 200-1000 yards. The only thing I can think of causing the variable results is something I experienced a several years ago with thin jacked , fast expanding bullets at high velocity in my 270wsm. And the Berger is thin jacketed, take a look at the dent in the bullet if seating pressure is too high. If you have a high velocity, combined with a fast twist and a rough bore, the bullet will leave the barrel in a weakened state and blow up on impact due to a weakened bullet case which actually occurs in the barrel. Its not the high impact velocity that causes the blow up, its the weakened bullet jacket. This is the first thing I thought when I looked at the pictures posted with the surface wounds. 3300 FPS out of a 6.5 with a fast twist imight be too much and turning the bullet into a grenade when it hits. I keep the velocities on my 6.5 with 140 VLD's at 2950 and it performs superbly at all ranges. There is a balance you have to reach if you want to take advantage of the down range ballistics of a VLD. I have not been able to get this balance with other hunting bullets in this caliber. I think the VLD formula works best with heavy, high BC , for caliber , at lower velocities. Just my opinion.
I agree with much of what you say. Every bullet has a window and a Berger is no exception. The nose of a Berger jacket measures .012" and it doesn't take much to change the expansion characteristics. My SXR's have a .010" nose and is part of the reason why they expand at 1300'. I do think that it is risky to shoot an elk in the shoulder at close range with a Berger, especially with the smaller calibers. of course they are more forgiving the larger you go. There is also a point where they don't expand reliably, and in my opinion, it is not down to 1800'. Again, every shot is different and it depends on what you hit. When you get into thin jacketed bullets, especially at high velocity, even twist rates and number of lands has an affect. I believe this is part of the reason why there is such a difference in opinion when comparing bullets to experiences. Overall, I believe a Berger is one of the good choices when used within its limitations.......Rich
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  #61  
Old 11-21-2011, 03:29 PM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

This is great reading. Thanks for posting up all the results. Haven't shot the first Berger, but I do have some for my 264WM and would like to give them a whirl, if anything, just to try on deer. Scotty
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  #62  
Old 11-24-2011, 01:35 AM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

For those who have read so far, if you even like the Berger the least bit, then you will probably love the A-Max.

One is made by a target bullet company who is gaining some knowledge in making hunting bullets.

The other is made by a hunting bullet company who knows how to make a hunting bullet that is as accurate as a target bullet, can sell it as a target bullet, and let hunters discover it is a great hunting bullet and let the target bullet mystique further shove sales.

When Berger started pushing their target bullets as hunting bullets, and after some noticeable sales were generated, it stands to reason the real hunting bullet companies would jump on the bandwagon with better hunting bullets disguised as target bullets.

So the real question might be: Do I want a target bullet disguised as a hunting bullet or a hunting bullet disguised as a target bullet? With Berger saying they recommend their bullet for hunting and Hornady saying they do not recommend their bullet for hunting, it is easy to see which camp each bullet is in.

There is some reverse psychology going on here , geared to those of a negatory mindset as a modus operandi. The main thing is if the spindoctor approach rings up some cash register sales for each company.

I'm awaiting a response from Speer.

Nosler has pushed the Ballistic Tip even before the Berger VLD came on the scene.

Sierra has had an answer before either Nosler, Berger or Hornady.....called the GameKing....except a bit tougher than a MatchKing up close and more reliable expansion at distance.

The Hornady A-Max is obviously what you get if you cross a Nosler BT with a Berger VLD.
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  #63  
Old 11-30-2011, 11:38 AM
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Re: Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

I am completely sold on the Berger's for hunting. I just started using them earlier this year and was very pleased with how accurate they were out of my 300wsm and 300 win mag, and could'nt wait to hunt with them. I went on a mule deer hunt in september and used the 185 vld to help finish off my partner's buck, The bullet entered just in front of the shoulder at 185 yards (quartering to) and turned the entire chest cavity to mush. Then took an elk in montana at 331 yards, put the round in the center of the shoulder, she took one step and fell over a log. same result, a chest cavity full of mush. Then this last weekend, I took a mule deer buck at 609 yards, It was a quartering away shot, the round hit 4" behind the shoulder, took out a rib, The bullet then traveled into the chest cavity and once again turned everything to mush. The buck ran about 10 yards and the tumbled 200 yards down the mountain. I have used the accu-bond exclusively up till this year, and have noticed that I lose alot less meat with the Berger, Especially on the entrance side of an animal. I have also used them on several coyotes and unless I hit bone they usually just go right thru with minimal pelt damage, But if you do hit bone you could wear that hide like a hat. Imo they are a devastating bullet that just put the smack down on animals. I would not hesitate to use them at any yardage.
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