Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics


Reply

Barnes Response to Berger

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-11-2009, 11:59 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 23
Barnes Response to Berger

Barnes has a recent post in response to Bergers article.
you can find it @
September 2009 Barnes Bullet-N | Barnes Bullets
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-11-2009, 12:50 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wampum, PA
Posts: 1,505
Re: Barnes Response to Berger

For those looking at this you need to go to the bottom of the linked page. I don't use Barnes and don't plan on it either. When their "ballistician" cares to contribute to our community I might think about it. Naa, I doubt I will even then.
__________________
"I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid." - Terry Bradshaw
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-11-2009, 03:31 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska
Posts: 3,503
Re: Barnes Response to Berger

Now I KNOW they are full of crap!! They say you cannot "knock" and animal down. They have obviously never shot an animal high in the neck. I have seen deer knocked off their feet to the point their feet were completely upside down in mid air. I also witnessed my buddy take a ram clean off his feet with a high shoulder shot. What a bunch of.......All right, I will be nice.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
Please just answer one very simple question. Why would anyone shooting long range load a low BC , low SD 168 gr offering in a 300 win???????

My answer to this is. The only reason is to make the 7 RM look good. There is no other reason.

Jeff.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-11-2009, 04:20 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bull Mtns MT
Posts: 593
Re: Barnes Response to Berger

Wish I had a video of the Whitetail Doe I neck shot when I was shooting the TSX's out of my old 300 WBY. She was facing me, hit her in the neck and all four feet went up and she landed on her back. They must be more "Book Smart" than us
__________________
I'd Rather Make a Slow Hit Than a Fast Miss!

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-11-2009, 04:37 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 3,145
Re: Barnes Response to Berger

Does someone remember the screen name of the Berger ballistician that's a member of this board? Someone should PM him and get his response.
__________________
I'm not gonna shoot here. I'm gonna shoot waaaaaaaay over there!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-11-2009, 05:05 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 508
Re: Barnes Response to Berger

I'm sure this will stir the pot. I don't believe that any bullet from any hunting rifle is able to lift a deer size animal off its feet. I have shot numerous whitetail deer from 15 to 200 yds. Most were shot with a 300 win mag. The close ones were bang flop not bang driven into the ground. I have also had them go straight up in the air and hit the ground like a bag of rocks. I believe this was a result of a muscle/nervous system reaction. Just my theory. Mind you I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with Barnes article.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-11-2009, 05:25 PM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 498
Re: Barnes Response to Berger

I just read Thads' article.

Here are some of my greatest hits from the Barnes' ballistician:

Quote:
In addition, our competitor claims that if you canít put the bullet in the right spot, construction means very little. This logic is completely flawed.
So the 'claim' that shot placement is important is flawed?

Here's another one:

Quote:
Anyone who says he or she can place a perfect shot at six or seven hundred yards under field conditions every time is either misinformed or stretching the truth.
Obviously he's not in touch with some of you guys!

And one of my personal favorites:

Quote:
As far as the accuracy of Barnes bullets being called into question, I myself have fired and hunted with bullets from nearly every manufacturer in the business. I canít say Iíve ever shot better groups than Barnes bullets have produced.
Again, I've been all around the country shooting in national level contests of long range rifle accuracy. I've never seen or even heard of anyone using Barnes bullets in contests of accuracy (score shooting) or precision (benchrest). .50 caliber being the exception.

He claims the performance data given in his original article was not unsafe. Remember when he compared the retained downrange velocity of Barnes bullets to other bullets, and it implied a freakishly high muzzle velocity was required? Well, it turns out that his trajectory was calculated for 7,000 feet altitude! This wasn't mentioned in the original article. Anyone who uses tricks like this (calculating trajectories in non-standard conditions and not giving the conditions) is either trying to deliberately mislead or is simply ignorant.

As for the terminal performance debate...
Unlike Thad, I'm not compelled say that Barnes bullets 'don't work' or 'aren't lethal' on game, or even 'don't work as good' as other options. Their bullet is a weight retaining penetrator. Berger is an expanding/fragmenting bullet. These two types of construction offer different options for the hunter. Both are lethal, some are better suited to different applications. This is the classic ford/chevy debate and I'm not interested in an opinionated discussion about what I or someone else 'likes' better.

It is aggravating to see someone trying to make deterministic matters like the benefits of superior external ballistics into a trivial matter of opinion though.

Statements about Barne's BC measuring procedures were made. The only thing that I came away with is that they have a 300 meter indoor facility and claim that they cannot repeat BC measurements within +/- 5%. I think this was a round-about response to being called out on their advertised BC's being high. They're not actually that much higher than I've measured (my measurements were over longer range; 600 yards vs 300). My understanding is that the Barnes BC's used to be very much inflated, and they were brought down to more realistic values only in the last few years. They should be commended for moving in this direction.

Frankly I'm not all that excited about this response. Those who are serious about long range shooing and hunting know better than to get their information only from vendors. You know how to weigh the options, consult multiple sources, and consider all the variables when selecting bullets for your application. The fact that Thad chooses to host his articles from the safety of the Barnes website where his statements cannot be challenged says a lot to me about the confidence he has in being able to support his statements.

As always, I'm willing to engage this and other forums on discussions pertaining to bullet performance.

Take care,
-Bryan
__________________
Bryan Litz
Ballistician

Author of: Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting
And: Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Barnes Response to Berger
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Barnes TTSX vs Berger VLD Dalebow Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics 28 04-07-2012 04:58 PM
Berger VLD or Barnes TSX Qaqmire Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics 7 12-19-2007 01:12 PM
Gunsamerica- non response ? ol mike General Discussion 1 07-27-2006 09:19 PM
Hornady response to A-Max ?? Charter Equipment Discussions 23 06-05-2003 09:25 PM
Response from Remington Mountain Man Equipment Discussions 5 05-13-2003 03:51 PM

Current Poll
Where in the US do you live?
West of the Mississippi River - 60.71%
884 Votes
East of the Mississippi River - 37.02%
539 Votes
On the Mississippi River on a houseboat - 2.27%
33 Votes
Total Votes: 1,456
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC