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Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

 
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  #43  
Old 12-18-2012, 03:53 AM
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Posts: 29
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddc View Post
please dont take this as a personal attack. It isnt.
It may not be personal, but it's an attack nonetheless.

If there is such a thing as a "curriculum vitae" post being required to establish one's chops here, I guess this will be mine, as you've challnged my credentials.

Quote:
But you are giving out advice without any basis to do so.
The external and terminal ballistics and analysis and comparisons I've provided, along with the following "accomplishments" clearly demonstrate I have the requisite acumen for offering such advice. Click: Photo Gallery

Quote:
You post that " The 130 TTSX is DEVASTATING on both deer and elk". How would you KNOW that? Read it in BARNES website maybe?
How do you KNOW the first atomic bomb was detonated in the New Mexico desert in 1945, before you or I were born? Does the fact that you read about it instead of witnessed it make it any less real? I've read many testimonials, and not on the Barnes website.

Quote:
You said you had never killed an elk....and yet you know all there is to know about killing them? HMMMMMM
"All there is to know" are your words, not mine. The vital anatomy of all ungulates is identical. The only differences, pertinent to killing them with a rifle, between the various species, are overall size/mass, hide thickness, and bone mass/density. The head, neck, heart, and lungs are all in the same place, scaled to body size, whether you're hunting hogs, antelope, whitetails, mulies, elk, bison, ram, caribou, moose, kudu, eland, zebra, rhino, geraffe, elephant, etc. Though the mass of elk is on average about 2-3x that of a Missouri whitetail, it certainly doesn't take 2-3x the bullet energy to kill them. Neither their hide, ribs, nor intercostal tissue is sufficiently thicker to require much, if any, additional horsepower. Thus they can be taken down with much the same rifle calibers and ammunition used on whitetails, at nominal ranges. Same for caribou and moose, zebra and eland. Eland are ~1,000 lb animals BTW. Sure their ribs are larger, but at nominal ranges most sensible rounds will make it through and wreak havoc in the boiler room.

It's only when shooting at extended ranges that muzle horsepower becomes an issue with the larger ungulates. Worth noting, before all the modern hot rod calibers existed, before the big bore magnums, British officers stationed there, and sportsman on safari, in colonial Africa were killing just about every African ungulate you can name with Enfield rifles firing .303 British. This round has about 70% of the energy of a .308 Winchester. American armies and settlers were killing elk, bison, moose, etc, with Sharps rifles that had only ~1700 ft-lbs at the muzzle, and less than a grand at 100 yds due to BCs of less than .1. Before the sharps rifles they were killing them with rifled muzzle loaders, which had even less energy. Of course not at 500 yards. But if they did it at 100 with 1000 ft-lbs or less of horsepower, then any modern rifle/bullet/caliber with the same horsepower at 500 yds will do the job. As someone stated eloquently earlier in the thread, "elk are not mythical" (hard to kill creatures).

Quote:
You also state that "Im GOING to load up some 110s". So when you stated that the OP should be shooting ELK at 500 with them you had what information to back you up?Barnes website again?
I already posted the external ballistics information and analysis and conclusions showing terminal performance for the 110 TTSX 300 WSM will be nearly identical to the 180 gr TTSX in .308 Win, which is already established as a 500 yd elk killer. Or are you pulling the "you didn't do it yourself, so you can't have the knowledge" thing again? Apparently you do not realize that using this argument simply demonstrates a serious lack of intelligence.

Quote:
You have shot 1 deer at 400 running?(How smart is that?)
Are you kidding? Of the 60 some deer I've killed over 25 years, at least half have been tail up sprinting, most at 150-250 yds, free hand. From 1989 to 1995 I only recall a single shot opportunity at a stationary deer which you'll see below. Some of the memorable ones were:

1. Doe, 150 yds, lateral behind the eye socket, blew left side of face off
2. Button, 200 yds, gut shot by friend, center neck shot as it fell over 15ft bank
3. Raggedy 5 pointer, 125 yds straight away, split the skull cap, face gone
4. Killed two does with two successive shots, 150 yds, up a steep hill, with 180gr Winchester Super-X silver tips. This was my first year with the 788, 1986. Both through the heart, both had coke can sized exit holes on the opposite side.

WRT the 400 yd'er, I tracked her in the glass for over a 1/4 mile laterally, measured her bounding height with the horizontal bar, guestimated range based on landmarks (hay bails at 200, she was double that), guestimated her speed at 20-25 (from watching vehicles moving on the highway next to my home w/30mph limit for 15 years). I laid the x-hair on her nose when her front hooves were on dirt, pulled 3 feet in front of her nose, raised to the top of her ears, timed three bounds to get the rythm and began lightly pulling the trigger (factory weight). On the fourth circuit, as her rear hooves left the dirt, the round discharged. I saw the orange out of the tube, then her front hooves hitting the dirt followed by her rear legs tucking up under her, followed by her nose hitting the dirt and her body cartwheeling over her head, as she disappeared behind a terrace in a ball of dust. My b-in-law went over on his 4 wheeler and after about 5 minutes rounded the bails with a taught cotton rope trailing behind.

The dumb shot would have been firing at 250. Though much closer, at that point she'd just come into my FOV and I'd just got the glass on her. She was tail up doing about 20-25mph. I'd have missed or wounded her had I fired then. So I did the smart thing above. The round hit the 5th? rib at about 120 degrees, jellied the right lung, grooved the heart and completely severed the aorta, jellied the left lung, and lodged in the tissue about 1/4" in front of the 1st rib on the left side. This was a 150 gr NBT out of my Rem 788 .308, Harris bipod, pickup hood.

I've never missed a running deer. I've never injured a running deer. Frankly when I was in my teens and early 20s I had a much higher hit percentage with free hand running shots than off the knee stationary shots at the same distance. I recall firing off the knee 200 yds broadside at a small button' and whiffing him high. He started running behind some trees, I stood up, took two steps for position, and popped him right through the heart freehand when he cleared the trees. I can't explain this phenomenon. Maybe an eye relief issue while off the knee. Maybe it's my bony ass causing a pivot point instead of a stable platform. I've injured a single stationary deer and put him down after walking 3 minutes to get to him. With this exceptoin, I've never hit a deer anywhere but head, neck, or boiler room. This is the exception:



Long story short as I can make it, I sprinted ~450 yds in full winter clothing and boots, down the valley across one of the dams and up the other side. I hit a fence post, leveled the x-hairs on the heart and, panting like a greyhound, quick snapped the trigger after holding a short breath. Why did I do this? The other 5 guys had taken the pickups around the horseshoe and their doors were opening 75 yds South of me as I hit the fence post. The buck was in PBR for all of us and 3 of the 5 were scratch shooters. I worked my ass off and earned this buck, dammit! He was facing left, I pulled high right, and vaporized one of his vertabrae, middle of the back, huge chunk of meat and hide missing, crippling his rear legs. I was so out of breath it took me about 3 minutes to get there and finish him. Took two addional shots through the spine at the base of the next to put his head down for good. Found both fully perfectly mushroomed under the opposite hide when we skinned him. These were Winchester Supreme Silver tip boattails, the old school full boattail round. I didn't feel as bad as I should have about his suffering due to the adrenaline and knowing he was going to be my first (and only thus far) cape mount. Typical 10 pt. The tines are amazing for this herd. T3s are 11 and 10.5 inches, the T2s are 9 and 8.5. It's only 18 wide and only scored 137 5/8 unofficial due to lack of mass and the small brow tines. Weighed 213 gutted. His neck looked like a tree trunk and the mount mould doesn't come close to portraying that girth accurately. Regardless of B&C score, I think it's a beautiful impressive rack due to the symmetry and height. He's no trophy in the record books, but he's a trophy in my book, the nicest buck I've had a shot at.

For those wondering how I was able to sprint ~450 yds w/winter clothing, rifle and gear, through valley terrain and then actually hit the deer (without going into cardiac arrest), I'm 6'4" and at the time of this kill about 185, mostly muscle, in college (definitely not now--still 185 but the muscle turned to flab years ago). I was a pretty decent athlete. I had better than 20/20 both eyes back then, probably 20/25 ballpark these days--haven't had a real eye test in years. There are many degrees of physical dexterity/coordination and quality of eyesight amongst shooters. I think many people fail to take into account that some other folks simply have natural talent with firearms due to traits bestowed by the creator.

Quote:
and 1 at 500 and you are an expert?
Expert is your word, not mine. Given the level of external and terminal ballistics acumen I've demonstrated on this forum, the number of whitetails I've taken and the manner in which I've taken them, and the fact that the only two opportunities I've had over 400 yards were both single shot DRT kills, one running 20+ mph through the heart, I'd say I'd qualify a little above novice.

Quote:
My 12 yr old son has shot 2 in one day over 1000.
Good for him. He's lucky to have such long range opportunites and a father to teach him.

Quote:
If I caught him posting on here I'd beat him.
I assume you don't mean that literally. If you do, well, there's a lot wrong with that mindset. If you're making the analogy that your son has more skill/knowledge than I do simply because he's had opportunity to take 1000 yd shots on flesh, and thus I shouldn't be posting here due to your standards, then you've really got some issues pal.

Quote:
BC MATTERS. SD MATTERS. ENERGY MATTERS.
Yes, of course they matter. I've demonstrated these multiple times in this thread, with the exceptoin of SD, which isn't critical with the X bullets and others of similar construction.

Quote:
Bullet construction and function matter also but you had better pay attention to the 1st three matters first.
Preaching to the choir here...

Quote:
This is a great place to learn and yes you can kill deer/elok all day long with the combo you suggested. But to keep it a great place to learn we shouldnt post on things we have zero experience with.
That just doesn't fly. To know how to kill an elk I need to have already killed an elk. Again, knowledge/ability is not equal to opportunity/accomplishment. You're creating a proverbial catch 22. You probably don't realize it. Or, you're just being a PITA because you feel I pissed in "your pond" with salient advice contrary to your own views, and posted evidence of teenage GIRLS demonstrating it can be done.

You need to realize that your way isn't the only way, and there are intelligent folks whose knowledge equals yours, regardless of in the field experience with elk. I'd guess I've killed more whitetails than you have elk, and have a similar amount of in the field hunting/killing experience. Just not with that specific ungulate, yet. Someone stated earlier that elk aren't some mythical hard to kill creatures. I can't say it any more creatively and succinctly than that.

I've killed doves, pheasants, quail, ducks, geese, frogs, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, coyotes, and whitetails, with all manner of gauges, calibers, and loads that fit the situation. And if I someday have the opportunity for an elk hunt, I'll take my .308 Win w/turretless glass, 110 TTSX rounds, and kill an elk, at 500 yds, with only 900 ft-lbs, if the opportunity arises.
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  #44  
Old 12-18-2012, 06:42 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Copper Basin, Alaska
Posts: 769
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

Wow. 7 pages. You'd have thot he asked which bullet was better at stopping a charging brown bear. . I would say which one you shoot the best
. For elk, I would use my 9.3x64 with the 250 gr TSX @ 2750 fps mv. But with your 300 I myself would use the 200 unless it's on the outer edge of stabilizing. Then I would try the 180 .

If I wanted a strictly elk rifle I would get another 338 RUM and shoot the 250 or 265 gr TSX or LRX bullet.
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  #45  
Old 12-18-2012, 10:39 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 130
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

Code:
               MV     ft*lbs@500
TTSX 110       3800     1094
TTSX 180       2600     1221
VLD 175        2600     1250
1. You aren't using the same muzzle energy.
A 110gr bullet at 3800f/s creates 3527 ft*lbf of kinetic energy.
A 180gr bullet at 2600f/s creates 2702 ft*lbf of kinetic energy.

2. Lets's use a 210gr Berger at 2750 f/s for an even comparison.
It creates 3526 ft*lbf of ernergy at the muzzle and keeps 2014 ft*lbf at 500 yards.
It has .8 mrad of winddrift in a 10m/h 90 wind, the 110gr TTSX would have 1.31 mrad of drift.

Why should the opener pay for .51 mrad of additional wind drift with 900 ft*lbs of ernergy?

You have prejudices against Berger's hunting bullets? Ok, then let's use the 200gr LRX Dalebow asked for.
At 2800 f/s mv it creates 3482 ft*lbs of me.
It keeps 1796 ft*lb at 500 yards drifting 0,95 mrad.

Still superior numbers.
Also the 110gr TTSX is only 100f/s faster at 500yards.
It won't affect the target by superior energy discharge per inch of penetration noticeably.
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  #46  
Old 12-18-2012, 01:19 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: sw ks
Posts: 314
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 500yd View Post
It may not be personal, but it's an attack nonetheless.

If there is such a thing as a "curriculum vitae" post being required to establish one's chops here, I guess this will be mine, as you've challnged my credentials.

The external and terminal ballistics and analysis and comparisons I've provided, along with the following "accomplishments" clearly demonstrate I have the requisite acumen for offering such advice. Click: Photo Gallery

How do you KNOW the first atomic bomb was detonated in the New Mexico desert in 1945, before you or I were born? Does the fact that you read about it instead of witnessed it make it any less real? I've read many testimonials, and not on the Barnes website.

"All there is to know" are your words, not mine. The vital anatomy of all ungulates is identical. The only differences, pertinent to killing them with a rifle, between the various species, are overall size/mass, hide thickness, and bone mass/density. The head, neck, heart, and lungs are all in the same place, scaled to body size, whether you're hunting hogs, antelope, whitetails, mulies, elk, bison, ram, caribou, moose, kudu, eland, zebra, rhino, geraffe, elephant, etc. Though the mass of elk is on average about 2-3x that of a Missouri whitetail, it certainly doesn't take 2-3x the bullet energy to kill them. Neither their hide, ribs, nor intercostal tissue is sufficiently thicker to require much, if any, additional horsepower. Thus they can be taken down with much the same rifle calibers and ammunition used on whitetails, at nominal ranges. Same for caribou and moose, zebra and eland. Eland are ~1,000 lb animals BTW. Sure their ribs are larger, but at nominal ranges most sensible rounds will make it through and wreak havoc in the boiler room.

It's only when shooting at extended ranges that muzle horsepower becomes an issue with the larger ungulates. Worth noting, before all the modern hot rod calibers existed, before the big bore magnums, British officers stationed there, and sportsman on safari, in colonial Africa were killing just about every African ungulate you can name with Enfield rifles firing .303 British. This round has about 70% of the energy of a .308 Winchester. American armies and settlers were killing elk, bison, moose, etc, with Sharps rifles that had only ~1700 ft-lbs at the muzzle, and less than a grand at 100 yds due to BCs of less than .1. Before the sharps rifles they were killing them with rifled muzzle loaders, which had even less energy. Of course not at 500 yards. But if they did it at 100 with 1000 ft-lbs or less of horsepower, then any modern rifle/bullet/caliber with the same horsepower at 500 yds will do the job. As someone stated eloquently earlier in the thread, "elk are not mythical" (hard to kill creatures).

I already posted the external ballistics information and analysis and conclusions showing terminal performance for the 110 TTSX 300 WSM will be nearly identical to the 180 gr TTSX in .308 Win, which is already established as a 500 yd elk killer. Or are you pulling the "you didn't do it yourself, so you can't have the knowledge" thing again? Apparently you do not realize that using this argument simply demonstrates a serious lack of intelligence.

Are you kidding? Of the 60 some deer I've killed over 25 years, at least half have been tail up sprinting, most at 150-250 yds, free hand. From 1989 to 1995 I only recall a single shot opportunity at a stationary deer which you'll see below. Some of the memorable ones were:

1. Doe, 150 yds, lateral behind the eye socket, blew left side of face off
2. Button, 200 yds, gut shot by friend, center neck shot as it fell over 15ft bank
3. Raggedy 5 pointer, 125 yds straight away, split the skull cap, face gone
4. Killed two does with two successive shots, 150 yds, up a steep hill, with 180gr Winchester Super-X silver tips. This was my first year with the 788, 1986. Both through the heart, both had coke can sized exit holes on the opposite side.

WRT the 400 yd'er, I tracked her in the glass for over a 1/4 mile laterally, measured her bounding height with the horizontal bar, guestimated range based on landmarks (hay bails at 200, she was double that), guestimated her speed at 20-25 (from watching vehicles moving on the highway next to my home w/30mph limit for 15 years). I laid the x-hair on her nose when her front hooves were on dirt, pulled 3 feet in front of her nose, raised to the top of her ears, timed three bounds to get the rythm and began lightly pulling the trigger (factory weight). On the fourth circuit, as her rear hooves left the dirt, the round discharged. I saw the orange out of the tube, then her front hooves hitting the dirt followed by her rear legs tucking up under her, followed by her nose hitting the dirt and her body cartwheeling over her head, as she disappeared behind a terrace in a ball of dust. My b-in-law went over on his 4 wheeler and after about 5 minutes rounded the bails with a taught cotton rope trailing behind.

The dumb shot would have been firing at 250. Though much closer, at that point she'd just come into my FOV and I'd just got the glass on her. She was tail up doing about 20-25mph. I'd have missed or wounded her had I fired then. So I did the smart thing above. The round hit the 5th? rib at about 120 degrees, jellied the right lung, grooved the heart and completely severed the aorta, jellied the left lung, and lodged in the tissue about 1/4" in front of the 1st rib on the left side. This was a 150 gr NBT out of my Rem 788 .308, Harris bipod, pickup hood.

I've never missed a running deer. I've never injured a running deer. Frankly when I was in my teens and early 20s I had a much higher hit percentage with free hand running shots than off the knee stationary shots at the same distance. I recall firing off the knee 200 yds broadside at a small button' and whiffing him high. He started running behind some trees, I stood up, took two steps for position, and popped him right through the heart freehand when he cleared the trees. I can't explain this phenomenon. Maybe an eye relief issue while off the knee. Maybe it's my bony ass causing a pivot point instead of a stable platform. I've injured a single stationary deer and put him down after walking 3 minutes to get to him. With this exceptoin, I've never hit a deer anywhere but head, neck, or boiler room. This is the exception:



Long story short as I can make it, I sprinted ~450 yds in full winter clothing and boots, down the valley across one of the dams and up the other side. I hit a fence post, leveled the x-hairs on the heart and, panting like a greyhound, quick snapped the trigger after holding a short breath. Why did I do this? The other 5 guys had taken the pickups around the horseshoe and their doors were opening 75 yds South of me as I hit the fence post. The buck was in PBR for all of us and 3 of the 5 were scratch shooters. I worked my ass off and earned this buck, dammit! He was facing left, I pulled high right, and vaporized one of his vertabrae, middle of the back, huge chunk of meat and hide missing, crippling his rear legs. I was so out of breath it took me about 3 minutes to get there and finish him. Took two addional shots through the spine at the base of the next to put his head down for good. Found both fully perfectly mushroomed under the opposite hide when we skinned him. These were Winchester Supreme Silver tip boattails, the old school full boattail round. I didn't feel as bad as I should have about his suffering due to the adrenaline and knowing he was going to be my first (and only thus far) cape mount. Typical 10 pt. The tines are amazing for this herd. T3s are 11 and 10.5 inches, the T2s are 9 and 8.5. It's only 18 wide and only scored 137 5/8 unofficial due to lack of mass and the small brow tines. Weighed 213 gutted. His neck looked like a tree trunk and the mount mould doesn't come close to portraying that girth accurately. Regardless of B&C score, I think it's a beautiful impressive rack due to the symmetry and height. He's no trophy in the record books, but he's a trophy in my book, the nicest buck I've had a shot at.

For those wondering how I was able to sprint ~450 yds w/winter clothing, rifle and gear, through valley terrain and then actually hit the deer (without going into cardiac arrest), I'm 6'4" and at the time of this kill about 185, mostly muscle, in college (definitely not now--still 185 but the muscle turned to flab years ago). I was a pretty decent athlete. I had better than 20/20 both eyes back then, probably 20/25 ballpark these days--haven't had a real eye test in years. There are many degrees of physical dexterity/coordination and quality of eyesight amongst shooters. I think many people fail to take into account that some other folks simply have natural talent with firearms due to traits bestowed by the creator.

Expert is your word, not mine. Given the level of external and terminal ballistics acumen I've demonstrated on this forum, the number of whitetails I've taken and the manner in which I've taken them, and the fact that the only two opportunities I've had over 400 yards were both single shot DRT kills, one running 20+ mph through the heart, I'd say I'd qualify a little above novice.

Good for him. He's lucky to have such long range opportunites and a father to teach him.

I assume you don't mean that literally. If you do, well, there's a lot wrong with that mindset. If you're making the analogy that your son has more skill/knowledge than I do simply because he's had opportunity to take 1000 yd shots on flesh, and thus I shouldn't be posting here due to your standards, then you've really got some issues pal.

Yes, of course they matter. I've demonstrated these multiple times in this thread, with the exceptoin of SD, which isn't critical with the X bullets and others of similar construction.

Preaching to the choir here...

That just doesn't fly. To know how to kill an elk I need to have already killed an elk. Again, knowledge/ability is not equal to opportunity/accomplishment. You're creating a proverbial catch 22. You probably don't realize it. Or, you're just being a PITA because you feel I pissed in "your pond" with salient advice contrary to your own views, and posted evidence of teenage GIRLS demonstrating it can be done.

You need to realize that your way isn't the only way, and there are intelligent folks whose knowledge equals yours, regardless of in the field experience with elk. I'd guess I've killed more whitetails than you have elk, and have a similar amount of in the field hunting/killing experience. Just not with that specific ungulate, yet. Someone stated earlier that elk aren't some mythical hard to kill creatures. I can't say it any more creatively and succinctly than that.

I've killed doves, pheasants, quail, ducks, geese, frogs, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, coyotes, and whitetails, with all manner of gauges, calibers, and loads that fit the situation. And if I someday have the opportunity for an elk hunt, I'll take my .308 Win w/turretless glass, 110 TTSX rounds, and kill an elk, at 500 yds, with only 900 ft-lbs, if the opportunity arises.
Wow you write a heck of a post. Now if you only knew what you were talking about we'd have it dicked.
We have seen people like you on here before. The koolaid drinkers.
Use the search engine to see that your viewpoint has been PARROTED (from barnes) many times before. Sometimes you guys wake up. Sometimes you dont.
I hope you do some real research (60 deer doesnt qualify) and learn the reality of BALLISTICS both thru research and actually shooting a few and learn the error of your ways.
And yes if you are spouting advice on the internet you should have a pretty good idea on the subject. You addmittedly dont. No you shouldnt need to kill an elk to know how to do it. To spout advice?????Different deal.
You seem to be quite adept at shooting running whiteys with a $90 scope at 250 yds. If the OP needed advice on that youd be the guy. He asked about deer/elk upto 500. So 1 kill at 500 qualifies you? NO. PERIOD.
And for the elks sake I hope you dont get the opportunity until you sober up or get some experience besides blasting at running deer. Who does that regularly as a style of hunting?
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  #47  
Old 12-18-2012, 01:25 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: sw ks
Posts: 314
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

And youve never missed a running shot? HMMMMMM Ever thought of goin pro? Why all the running shots anyway? I know that running is the PREFERRED way to do it but gee. Maybe stopping them or not shooting would be a good idea. Oh I forgot youve never missed and kilt 60 whole deers in yer life so that must be the way ta do it. 60 is a bunch....in an afternoon.
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  #48  
Old 12-18-2012, 01:55 PM
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Location: sw ks
Posts: 314
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

Whats a t3? a t2? Do ya mean G3?
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  #49  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:04 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: sw ks
Posts: 314
Re: Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

And yes my 12 yr old is more qualified to talk about this than you. Since you will not listen to anything you dont parrot off the web from barnes I am going to turn this thread over to him. Teaching people with limited knowledge that wont listen to ANYONE when they are wrong is too much brain damage for an old guy like me.Unfortunately since you cant see everyone reading this laughing thier asses off at you it makes it tough because you wont stop looooong after youve made a fool of yourself. Max(my son) should be home by 5pm from school(thats CST) and he will answer your posts at that time. Thanks and have a great day.
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