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Balllistics Program Question

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Old 01-09-2003, 01:21 AM
Posts: n/a
Re: Balllistics Program Question


I like your title better, go with it.

I need to know, though, which company makes the best big eyes, and what is their designation on the Stock Exchange? I need to make the appropriate investments, before I help you sell this concept. The only thing is,..... it actually seems less safe for the animal, assuming you want it to die and all......? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Know any good pack mule breeding ranches that need investors? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
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Old 01-09-2003, 08:29 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,757
Re: Balllistics Program Question


Fact #1 --For "in the dark" shooters.
In "reality", the animal is truly the safest with 99% of the LR hunters trying for 1 shot kills in excess of 1000 yds. As you said, it takes years and years of practice under strict supervision to even "attempt" it and then most don't bag their game at excessive range anyway. They will normally miss or make a wounding shot.
This may not be the case with you, but for most it is reality. Most don't have the chance to shoot everyday with top intructors and over a period of years like military teams do. That's all they do is shoot the entire enlistment period if they are fairly decent shooters to begin with.
If you can do it, thats great, but most can't and probably will Never be able to.

This is why we try to "suggest and teach" the spotter shot method which is a highly successful way of making the far off kills on game. Inside of 1000 yds, the 1 shot method can be a reality, after that things change rapidly and most LR hunters have to make the switch over to the spotter shot method then.

We are not snipers who have to be trained for years to place 1 shot into a human and many of them miss their target too. We both have seen this happen. A wounding shot is fine for this style of shooter. It takes the enemy out of action.

Fact #2 Big eyes
The Big eyes (since you said you have never seen any) come in a variety of configurations. Two Kowa 77 or 82MM spotters put together in a bracket, 2 Bushnell 60mm Spacemasters put together or 2 Bausch and Lomb 60mm spotters put together. All have eyepieces of at least 20 to 22X Wide angle in them. Some have turrets with 3 sets of eyepieces so you can have 20X 30X and 40X or even 60X eyepieces for animal and horn identification.

There are no stock exchange names for these so keep your money in the bank. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
I have assembled about 45 sets of these over the years.

Anyway, try and come to Williamsport this summer and stretch the legs of some of your rifles at 1000 yds. Be interesting in seeing what they will do at 1000 yds and with 10 shots on paper. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
That 1000 yd rifle range just 20 miles North of Williamsport, PA may fool you as it does to many who have tried it, yours truly included even when shooting a few "spotter shots".

DC [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Darryl Cassel
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Old 01-09-2003, 11:22 AM
Posts: n/a
Re: Balllistics Program Question


Fact # 1) The advent of tools like the Leica vector 4 combined with a motivated shooter willing to collect actual data with his rifle at the ranges he will hunt at will solve most of the problem on the Y axis (vertical).

Fact # 2) Resolving accuracy on the X axis takes more time, ammo, and thought. Often the majority of the X can be dealt with by simple manuvering to an upwind or down wind position. Experience (practice), the right technique (education), and humility (common sense) will allow any shooter to have tremendous success past 1,000 yds.

I hold the shooters on this forum in very high regard, I will even bet they put their pants on the same way you and I do. I believe they can learn, and will exceed what you and I have accomplished in the field in very short order. It is only proper and natural, since they benefit from our experiences and their own knowledge and creativity. We all build on those that go before us.

No one should accept the imaginary line that DC draws for one shot kills at 1,000 yds. I would recommend shooting at ranges shorter and longer with each rifle you own, noting the conditions and accuracy, and set your own guidlines based on reality and ethics.
I know some of you can already exceed 1,000 right now, and would encourage you to look for better techniques and tools so that my granson and DC's grandson are arguing the practicality some day of making one shot kills at 3,000 yards. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-09-2003, 01:35 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 66
Re: Balllistics Program Question

John M.

I checked it out last night. Unbelievable - and I'm embarrassed that I didn't notice it before. I wonder why they don't post updates and patches on their website.

I've been patiently waiting for the ATRAG2 to come out but so far it's still "Coming Soon." You know what would be good is the ability to input the BDC settings so that elevation output could be something like "600 + 3" or "600 - 1" meaning dial in 600 on your BDC and add or subtract the number of clicks indicated. Simply giving either MOA or click value adjustments is too slow. It will interesting to see what the final product looks like.
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:27 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Richmond Va
Posts: 267
Re: Balllistics Program Question

Each uses his own method for this problem.

I leave my scope set to a 100 foot elevation 700yd zero and work with specific charts for each elevation and temperature I will be firing on that weekend.

When I run a chart for 2000 foot and 10 less degrees, I make a 700 yd shot at the new location and adjust my 700 zero to that NEW 700 zero, note the difference on paper and actually move the knobs to the new zero.

AT end of day it is returned to my flatland setting and knob reset.

Best I can tell, I am only off by the speed which changes at various temperatures and I have not gone to that level YET.

If I arrive and setup to see a target before the 700 yd zero, I have to decide whether or not to take the shot but if I do I follow it up with a 700 re-zeroing once I have made the initial BOOM!

I use the package Lilja sells and it is on the money for 2 of my 3 current long range rigs. It involves moving the difference in clicks from one distance to the other.

I do use a Barr & Stroud and don't believe anything else can be as accurate for this work.
Still playing King of the Hill
Beware the high ground
[Reaching for wallet] You wouldn't happen to be a betting man would you?
Impossible means not done YET!
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Old 01-09-2003, 04:57 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,757
Re: Balllistics Program Question


Consistancy is the word here.

With most shooters having problems reading the wind, the consistancy of the 1 shot kill time after time past 1000 and certainly 1500 yards would NOT be as good as the sighter system and most here will agree.

Sure, an occasional 1 shot kill can be made at those ranges, but the error factor is greatly cut back with a spotter shot first.

Why take a shot at an animal when you are NOT 100% sure of the wind factor?
If I place 1 or 2 shots downrange as a sighter round to make my final scope corrections, I now have a MUCH better chance of placing the bullet into that animal then a person firing directly at it the first round even in a wind condition that you may hold up in.
I'm talking in excess of 1000 to 1250 yds and beyond.

I believe most shooters want to be positivly sure of their shot before taking it.
The spotter way will give the shooter that edge 9 out of 10 times.

Anyway, our Grandsons will be discussing this in years to come. Mine will be shooting a spotter first or I'll disown him. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]


[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
Darryl Cassel
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:21 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Asuncion, Paraguay
Posts: 39
Re: Balllistics Program Question

Respectfully, how can anybody be sure of the wind speed and direction downrange, specially at 1000+ yds? S1, mentions trying to position in line with the wind, but has previously warned about sometimes umpredictable POI changes (both vertical and horzontal) with just a 15 wind angle.
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