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Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

 
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Old 01-29-2007, 12:00 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

The point is catshooter, that in order for my tests to match yours, all things must be equal. That is all the point I am trying to make. Nothing more nothing less.

Differant powders and differant primers WILL yield differant velocities at differant twists. That is alot of variables. So if I test bullet "A" with all of my equipment, and you test that same bullet with yours, yes the results of BC and drag model WILL be differant.

Granted, most of the ballistic testing done on record has been done by the military, using VERY similar weapons and load components, so yeah, when using 168's and 175's and othe military match bullets from a 308 with similar twists and similar velocities, things are a little more predictable. Answer me this, when did the military use 178 AMAX's or bergers?? Or when did they use these bullets in a 300 RUM? You simply cannot say that all this ballistic research has been done over the last 100 years and that it is all predictable.

You say that makes ballistic software usless. If you are trying to hot a target at 1K with out first doing firing tests, youre right. They are useless.

You have to remember that the point of ballistic software is to accurately predict bullet flight in a new enviornment with real world BC's and drag models. Without those 2 key components, software generates a good guess. YOU CAN ONLY GET ACCURATE BC's AND DRAG MODELS FROM REAL WORLD FIRING TESTS.
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Old 01-29-2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

[ QUOTE ]
So you say that if I'm shooting a 308 190gr SMK at 3000 fps, and I change powder and primer, and I'm still shooting a 190gr SMK at 3000 fps - my BC and ballistics change, and none of the previously data apply, all because I changed the primer and powder, but the velocity and bullet are the same???

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, if you changed the powder and primer, you wouldnt be shooting the same velocity, now would you?
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Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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  #10  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:49 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

[ QUOTE ]
The point is catshooter, that in order for my tests to match yours, all things must be equal. That is all the point I am trying to make. Nothing more nothing less.

Differant powders and differant primers WILL yield differant velocities at differant twists. That is alot of variables. So if I test bullet "A" with all of my equipment, and you test that same bullet with yours, yes the results of BC and drag model WILL be differant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no no no...
... you have changed the frame of discussion (and need a spell checker).

You said that if the powder and primers are different, the results will be different.

I say, if I shoot a 308 190gr SMK at 3000 fps with purple powder and purple primers, and my friend shoots a 308 190gr SMK at 3000 with red powder and red primers - THE SAME BULLET LEAVES THE MUZZLE AT THE SPEED - they will NOT have different BC's

External ballistics is the science (art?) of the bullet's flight AFTER it leaves the muzzle. BC's don't play inside the barrel, or at the time of ignition. BC's take over when the bullet breaks free and starts digging it's way through the soup of atmosphere to get where we "hope" it will get.

I want you to explain how the primer and powder change the BC? It is a simple question.

That is not asking too much, is it??

.
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Old 01-29-2007, 01:38 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

Gentlemen, thanks for the input!

But my point was not intended to open a discussion on snipers and their skills...or combat situations. Or to make a point on lucky shots or gifted individuals.

My point was (is) if we already know that predictions beyond 2000 yards are very unstable, why do we need or trust them?

Is there a point in making software to generate values beyond that range or is it pointless?

I of course, can acknowledge the need for such a software ( will market well ), but just to be grounded...who can trust them enough?

I agree, that every system is unique in its own terms, and that there are many variables involved that can make difficult to match firing tests between different systems.

But the keywords here are "enough predictive accuracy for cold bore first shots" and when I check the many well-known software packages, well discrepancies of about 50 inches or more are not rare...

Another view of this post could be, who can give first hand results of shooting "well enough" beyond 2000 yards using which software or math model? I mean with results that matched the program's input.

PS: to buffalob, yes I love LRH, and Argentina has plenty of places (it's almost an empty country...) with many species, and with so many different scenarios (from the Patagonia, Andes to the deserts) that is almos impossible to give through some pictures a decent impression. Check any tourism website and you might have a good idea or better yet, be my guest and come down here to shoot, I promise a great experience!
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  #12  
Old 01-29-2007, 02:07 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

CatShooter,
How the bullet is altered by the internal quality of each rifle will have much to do with your BC. A rough barrel will produce different BC than a custom barrel. Once the bullet has exited the barrel, will have on it markings proportional to the internal quality of a particular rifle affecting, of course, the ability for that bullet to fly. That means our BC for that bullet was changed in the inside of your particular rifle. That's the reason we have to do field testing at different ranges to fine tune the BC for different rifles even if the bullet is coming out of the muzzle at the same velocity.
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  #13  
Old 01-29-2007, 02:23 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

[ QUOTE ]
Argentina has plenty of places (it's almost an empty country...) with many species, and with so many different scenarios (from the Patagonia, Andes to the deserts) that is almos impossible to give through some pictures a decent impression

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes sir.- I hunted in an area close to Bariloche in the pre-andinean range.... tough hunting, nice place and big red deer too ¡¡
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  #14  
Old 01-29-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: Ballistics beyond 2000 yds : do we need/trust them?

[ QUOTE ]
CatShooter, How the bullet is altered by the internal quality of each rifle will have much to do with your BC. A rough barrel will produce different BC than a custom barrel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why it is so hard to answer this question without changing the frame work.

I am referring to the statement that powder and primers will change the BC... there was NOTHING SAID about rough barrels vs smooth barrels. Duh!!

Why is it so difficult to answer this one statement??

Lemme try it AGAIN. How does the powder and primer change the BC, if the bullet is exiting the same velocity FROM SMOOTH BARRELS (OK??).

.
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