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Apologies again

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Unread 03-09-2007, 10:01 AM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 81
Re: Apologies again

Volume, set up time, liability, abd regulations are, indeed factors that I overlooked. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. However, it makes very little difference when it boils down to pricing. Basic economic law says that if the customer would not be willing to pay the price for the lower production number, extra set up time, and other increased production costs then either action makers would have to find a way to cut those costs to customer acceptable levels, or go out of buisiness. Make no mistake about it, supply and demand are the price setters here, as in any other marketplace. Value and pricing is my bread and butter, I'm an appraiser by trade. If there were not sufficient customer base with both the desire and means to pay the price being charged, that price would go down. If there were a shortage of match quality barrels, enough of a shortage that there were more shooters who wanted them than barrels available, you'd see te price hike quite rapidly.

I am not complaining about how cheap barrels are. More to the point, I am trying to figure the purchase motivational factors in play with the typical buyer of custom rifle components.

There are an awful lot of custom gunsmiths out there nowadays turning out some pretty incredible work. I have priced the components, and I have priced the smithing services required to turn those components into a top quality rifle, and adding a fair profit margin, I still cannot figure the prices some makers charge for a complete rifle. Now before I get flamed for something I'm not saying, I'm not accusing anyone of price gouging. I believe in economic law, and if the market would not bear the pricing in question, that pricing would change in a hurry. The custom maker does indeed deserve to be paid well for the time, effort, expertise, and experience that goes into the craft. Value for value amongst honest buisinesspersons.

However, that being said, if the market WILL bear the pricing I've seen some charge, that means that there IS an effective demand for very expensive rifles and components. Perhapse not this expensive for a barrel, but an effective demand nonetheless.

As far as having too much time on my hands...

I am trying to do nothing more than benefit the shooting community at large, and the long range shooting community in specific by moving the state of the art forward a little bit. Such a forward movement is a long time coming,and is far overdue, as barrelmaking hasn't changed to speak of in over 50 years!

Am I trying to get rich off of this? Do I want any fame or credit by naming the product after myself? Have I applied for even one patent, copyright, or other exclusive rights? No. I am quite satisfied being a nameless, faceless mover in the background. The idea that may have had a positive impact on an industry as fascinating and large as this one is satisfying enough, and the only other compensation I would like is t see my ideas actually come to fruition. (owning one wouldn't be bad either!)

Nobody gives Kirby Allen a hard time about pushing the ballistic envelope with incredibly overbore Allen Magnum wildcats. He is hailed and cheered as a hero of the long range shooting world.

Here I come, and try to make a barrel that will give a good, long barrel life, holding its ultimate accuracy potential long enough to make his very own AM's a viable long term soloution, and everyone tells me I'm wasting my time!

There's gratitude for ya!
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Unread 03-09-2007, 11:11 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 138
Re: Apologies again

Ambien dude most doc's would prescribe it to you after a 5 min. talk get the new CR version. By the way no on the barrel Can get a nice wather lother hand lapped with action stock and all for $1600 and shoots 1/2 or less MOA . Nice thought though Tod
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Unread 03-09-2007, 11:14 AM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 81
Re: Apologies again


thanks, but i got no health insurance!
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Unread 03-09-2007, 11:44 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,855
Re: Apologies again

Dzaw , what is your background in? you seem very keen on this subject.

I think that if 17-4 was that much better I think that the military would be using it , at least in their sniper rifles or comp guns , especialy seeing that they basicaly have unlimited funds for weapons development.

You should give Dan Lilja a call and talk to him about your concerns , he offered his thoughts on the BlackStar process some time back and his thoughts were that if its to smooth that the bullet will get to much traction in the barrel and foul badly , at least thats what i think I read , he refered to racing slicks on a dragster , basicaly saying that the smoother the surface was the more surface area their was to work on.
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
Molon Labe
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Unread 03-09-2007, 12:48 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
Re: Apologies again


How did I get pulled into this debate?????

I hardly think I am hailed as anything but someone who builds rifles and has developed some ballistically impressive wildcats. Hardly a hero in anyones book?????

Honestly I do not care to he held to a higher level then anyone else on this board because I am not!

As far as people cheering me, you may care to go back and do some reading when I started the Allen Magnum project and see how much fire was thrown my way when I was reporting the ballistic performance of my Allen Magnums and the new Wildcat bullets designed for them. There was some praise and there was alot of hammering going on as well.

My point, do what you want, get a barrel made the exact way you want it to be made as you discribe, test the theory, get the hard data and offer it to the forum. If your theory holds water you will be praised for advancing our sport.

Again, no offense taken but please to not use my name and place me on some pedistal. That is not me, everyone on this board knows that is not my personality and I really do not like being referred to in that manor.

Do your tests, push the envelope and advance our sport and be ready to be hammered along the way because it will happen. Expect it to happen and live with it.

Again, I took and take my fair share of attacks for what I have reported with my Allen Magnums. There have been people kicked off chat rooms because of their rage at what I was simply reporting ballistic data on.

Thicken up that skin. IF you want to push the envelope, you will need a bit thicker hide.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 03-09-2007, 01:36 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 81
Re: Apologies again

My background? that's a heck of a mess. My metallurgical knowledge comes originally from my interest in bladesmithing, something I'm getting to be almost passable at. However, I discovered in the process of learning the neccessary skills and information, a whole world of materials science called ferrous metallurgy. Steel is incredibly fascinating to me, and I study it actively.

The military is actually testing 17-4 on sniper rifle barrels. The complaint that the army had for Mr. DeVanna was that training scout/snipers and giving them range time was too expensive. The training was outlasting the accuracy life of the barrels they were using, and so they went to Crucible for help. Moreover, Crucible is helping the navy produce 40mm barrels out of the same stuff, for the same reasons. Now THERE's overbore!

Also, I am familiar with Mr. Lilja's comments on barrels being too smooth. I would have to agree that there certainly is such a thing as too smooth. I have nothing but the utmost respect for men like Mr. Lilja, who produce some of the best, most precisely created products in the world. If ever any comment I have made leads anyone else to believe that I am out to badmouth barrelmakers in general, or otherwise case a shadow over an individual or buisiness, please allow me to lay that to rest now, as nothing could be farther from the truth!

As far as a bore being too smooth, as I said, I agree wholeheartedly! We have available to us fine diamond abrasoives as used for gemstone and glass lapidary down to the submicron level. Such a polish would be quite detrimental for much the reasons Mr. Lilja gives. The analogy is a good one. These abrasives are not a new invention, and it's a simple enough thing to test, I would be quite surprised if people havn't tried it and given it up as a bad idea. I'm not trying to advocate in any way that the finish being polished into any top quality barrel isn't smooth enough!


I am sorry to drag your name out like that. I was out of line, and it was inexcuseable.

As I said above, I get excited about steel. If that makes me a geek, oh well, at least I try to do some pretty cool things with all that geekiness! My enthusiasm has caused me to fail to err on the side of caution, and I have the tendancy to admire and respect innovation and quality when I see it. I haven't been around these boards long enough to hear anything but glowing praise for your work.

Finally, a thought, my comment was intended as a compliment to the reputation you have fought hard to earn. Please do take it as such.

I will try to take your advice to heart and grow some hide. Stragenly enough, I knew I was going to get shot down when I posted, and it still didn't make it any easier to read. Methinks I perhapse take myself too seriously.
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Unread 03-09-2007, 02:12 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,232
Re: Apologies again


thanks, but i got no health insurance!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dzaw, your description is almost exactly what I go through sometimes. I've figured 2 things out.

1) Try to think about something else. Not just lightly, really concentrate on something else; it quiets the whirlwind down and then I fall asleep.
2) Red Wine. And its good for your heart. 2 glasses/night ;-)

If some is good and more is better, then too much is just right.

My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives
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